PRC - Kina - gigant u usponu ili copycat

[Constantin]

Iz lične arhive....

 

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[Constantin]

 

[Dzoni_m]

Jaooo dokle vise 🙂 Em sto laziraju podatke (65% prodatih EV-ova u Kini NIJE BEV, vec plug-in hibrid), drugo kog bre zabole? Necu EV i to je to. Ne mozes da me nateras, ako pokusas, necu kupiti. A onda se desi kao u EU prodaja padne u jednom kvartalu 30% pa politicari krenu da se znoje jer znaju ko zaposljava ogromnu kolicinu ljudi. Kako je ekonomski ministar zeleni odmah oticao u VW da obecava......EV moze samo da se prodaje uz pomoc subvencija (kao sto Kina i radi), a USA i EU stanovnistvo nece da dotira drugom nabavku novog vozila. 

 

Zato neka Kina "osvetljava put" sa EV-ovima i neka drzava odredjuje ko ce sta da radi, vozi itd, ostatak sveta niti treba niti ce se ugledati na njih. Sto sto bombasticno zvuci da je EV neki napredak, mozda samo u glavama onih koji pojma nemaju o vozilima, mehanici ili bilo cemu. EV moze da pravi ko hoce, klasican ICE malo teze, a tek zabluda o ekoloskom uticaju.......

Edited September 22 by Dzoni_m

[Constantin]

Hm...onako na brzaka, slažem se. Ima propagande, ali...konkretno za Peking...ako kupuješ klasik auto, benzinac, podnosiš zahtev nadležnom ministarstvu i na registraciju čekaš u proseku 2-3 godine. Dizel, samo privredna vozila. Ako kupuješ EV, registracija može odma'. Inače, kad sam poslednji put bio, benzin je bio oko 60 dinara. Ništa čudno što je tolika potražnja. Uglavnom se dobra kola voze, a i većina ima popriličnu platežnu moć. Standard 🤗

 

Ja, lično, nikad ne bih kupio EV iz mnogo razloga. Imao sam hibride, Priuse, lepa iskustva s njima, to je vozilo za grad ekonomično, na otvorenom putu pa baš i nije. Kad krenu zajebancije ima čovek o kafu da se zabavi. Ja sam rešio kad sam imao Priusa 2, da pročistim kanale za hladjenje baterije, jer je počeo da mi se uključuje ventilator za hladjenje baterije, tad i nikad više, koliko posla ima.

 

još mali off

 

Kad mi sin prešao Saudijsku Arabiju, jednom prilikom sam bio desetak dana kod njega. Na raspolaganju je imao Toyotu Yaris, benzinca. Krenuli u obilazak po gradu, a pokazivač za gorivo nas obaveštava da popričamo sa "pumperima".....dodjemo mi na pumpu i sin kaže "ful"...gledam ja situaciju i razmišljam, kad sam ja tako razgovarao sa zaposlenima na benzinskoj pumpi, pa mi prosto žao. Završi se točenje, sin ode, plati i donese i dve kafe. Stanemo sa strane, pijuckamo kafu i ja ga pitam koliko je platio pun rezervoar, kaže mi 2500 din 😵‍💫 u Rijalima naravno. Pokazuje mi cenovnik, ono što na svakoj pumpi ima, ma ulazu. Pitam, a ona najmanja cena, on kaže to je dizel. Koliko je, pitam, 17 dinara kad se preračuna u Rijalima..😮 Pa što ne tražiš neki auto na dizel, pitam ga...kaže, ne može, samo privredna vozila, a i ćale bre 4 puta jeftiniji benzin nego kod nas. 

[Dzoni_m]

Sve sto mi neko gura u pod nos "za moje dobro" imam izuzetno odbrambeni stav. Prvo zato sto mislim da svaka vlast tj ljudi u istoj su po default prevaranti i cilj im je samopromocija, dok se ne dokaze drugacije. Tek kada su saterani u cosak puste one koji znaju da izraze svoje misljenje i mozda struku. Ako je to default za razvojene zemlje, mogu da zamislim kako to izgleda u Kini. Zato ne volim kada neko gura agendu koja je samo u njihovom licnom interesu.

 

Sto se tice samih EV-ova, ja sam covek koji obozava automobile i auto industriju. Imao sam priliku da vozim dosta EV-ova i nemam ja problem sa njima. Generalno moj utisak je da su svi isti, svi rade isto, svi su bezlicne bele, sive, plave, crvene kutije koje prevezu od a do b. I to je super. Imaju neki koji se izdvajaju (Tesla, daleko najbolji EV koji sam ikada vozio), ali generalno fali im textura, fali im vibracija, fali im nesavrsenost. Sve ono sto ICE automobile cini dobrim/losim u zavisnosti kako je prozvodjac to napravio. Problem koji ja imam sa njima: infrastruktura za punjenje (nema je, cesti problemi, nedovoljni kapaciteti, nedovoljni kapaciteti distributivne mreze), kome su namenjeni (EV je super za urbane sredine, ZASTO imas automobile u urbanim sredinama? Zar nije bolje javni prevoz da poboljsas i u uskim gradskim jezgrima zabranis saobracaj? Ovi sto voze dalje relacije, njima EV nista ne znaci), koliko su "ekoloski" (posebna tema dugacka) i naravno DRAKONSKE cene istih. Jos gore je sto je cela vrednost vozila u bateriji. Ko je lud da kupi to polovno? Sto znaci automatski jos gori finansijski moment kada kupujes kao nov. Ljudi se pitaju sto niko ne kupuje polovan EV......sto ne kupujete polovne mobilne telefone ili laptop-e? Zato sto se plasite kakva je baterija. Isti slucaj sa EV

 

Hibridi (plug-in) su najgora moguca stvar koju je auto-industrija ikada prihvatila. Najgore iz oba sveta. Skupa baterija, teski, komplikovani.........sve to mozes da uradis i sa obicnim motorom. mild hybrid je ok, tu baterija ili ne postoji ili je jako mala ili je kondenzator, tako da su tu dobici manji ali pomaze. 

 

Apsurd je sto je danasnji ICE motor toliko cist i efikasan da uopste nije vise problem u samom motoru. Pogonsko gorivo takodje nije problem, pogotovu sto sinteticka goriva sada postoje i bukvalno su drop in zamena sto bi znacilo da i stara vozila automatski mogu postati CO2 neutralna. Problem je kako se pravi, kolicina i td. Ali to vec mora da se prebaci sa terena vozaca i autoindustrije na teren drzave. E tu pocinje problem. Vracamo se prvi pasus, to zahteva RAD politicara a ne samo "oporezuj" "zabrani" "uvedi akcizu"......Koliko samo dodatnih izdvajanja ide za "ekolosku stvar" i naravno NISTA se ne radi, vec se samo problem gurne na drugo mesto. A o tome da mi zivimo na jednoj planeti i da ne moze EU da resi nista sama za sebe. Sta god EU ustedi na emisiji za god dana, to za mesec Kina i USA izbace nazad i njih zabole da se pravdaju. USA koliko-toliko al' Kinu zabole. Ali zato imaju EV.....

Edited September 22 by Dzoni_m

[Constantin]

3 minutes ago, Dzoni_m said:

Hibridi (plug-in) su najgora moguca stvar koju je auto-industrija ikada prihvatila. Najgore iz oba sveta. Skupa baterija, teski, komplikovani.........sve to mozes da uradis i sa obicnim motorom. mild hybrid je ok, tu baterija ili ne postoji ili je jako mala ili je kondenzator, tako da su tu dobici manji ali pomaze. 

 

Verovatno grešim, ali bih ja, na osnovi iskustva, ipak pre uzeo hibrid nego EV...zbog par praktičnih razloga. Ne moram da punim svaki čas, to radi motor umesto mene, nisam vezan za punjače, jeftinije baterije. Kod Priusa 2, možeš da zameniš samo jednu ćeliju, koja je oslabela, i to ne košta više od 100 €, dok kod Priusa 3 i Priusa 4 ipak mora cela baterija. To može da te košta od 1000 so 3000. Nisi ograničen autonomijom od punjača do punjača, i imaš mogućnosti da voziš i na benzin i na LPG. Možda je to malo, ali eto.

 

Ja sam vozač "starog kova" i nemam nikakav osećaj kad sednem u Teslu, dok nasuprot, zvuk šest cilandara je nešto neprevazidjeno.

 

 

[Dzoni_m]

Nazalost plugin hibridi nude prakticnost ali to naplate debelo. Prvo, tezina. Uskoro nas cekaju novi propisi EU o zagadjenju gde ce se u obzir uzimati prasina od kocinonih obloga, gume itd. Drugo, hibrid radi dobro u gradu. Van grada, teglis ogromnu bateriju i elektro motor koji nista ne cine, osim sto povecavaju potrosnju. Vecina novih hibrida ako nesto nije u redu sa jednim pogonskim motorom/baterijom auto je mrtav. Npr ne moze sda startujes ICE posto auto nema starter, oslanja se na EV motor, a nemas dovoljno baterije da vozis niti napunis jer ICE ne radi. Znaci duplo golo. 

 

Sve je to lepo dok je vozilo novo, ne sporim, ali kada krene da zeza, mozes samo da bacas novac na njega racunajuci da ce to biti to (hint: obicno crkne sledeca stvar) i tako dok ga ne posalju na otpad jer je auto mehanicki otpisan. I sta smo uradili? Zamenili ga novim, a ta velika baterija sve to ima veliki ekoloski danak prilikom proizvodnje i ne stigne sebe da "otplati" prilikom eksploatacije. 

 

Neki proizvodjaci vec decanijama imaju taj pogon (Toyota) gde bih se mozda i usudio da kupim auto od njih, ali opet zbog toga sto oni pokirivaju garancijom probleme. Znam mnogo vlasnika Priusa koji su ih uzeli nove i njima je auto "savrsen" sve radi nikada problemi, a onda ih pitas koliko puta je menjana visokonaponska baterija, dobijes odgovor izmedju 2-3 puta i onda "ali to mene nista ne kosta, to je pod garancijom". Ljudi to ne kapiraju, jeste, tebe nista nije kostalo, ali to nije resenje. 

 

Zato kazem da bi trebali mnogo da razislimo pre nego sto krenemo sa tim "Kinezi napreduju, samo EV voze" da li je to zaista odrzivo, dobro resenje ili samo jos jedna opcija za specificnu namenu. PA samo ako se setimo pre 30 godina kako su nas ubedjivali da je Dizel najbolja moguca stvar i da je to resenje za zagadjenje. Cak su i subvencije bile jedno vreme.....zvuci poznato?

[Constantin]

Slažem se @Dzoni_m ako ti je to uopšte bitno 

Mene čak i previše elektronike u običnim vozilima nervira. Moglo je i bez toga, pri tom, cenim, da bi vozači bili koncentrisaniji i na vozilo i na put.

Najprostije, ja i danas kažem deci, daj da uzmem Mercedes 200 D, to ima samo 4 žice, jes da malo više troši, al se ništa ne kvari.

[fancy]

Pošto je Wall Street Journal iza Paywall-a, idem sa copy/paste I Spolierom:

 

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China’s Newest Nuclear Submarine Sank, Setting Back Its Military Modernization

Pierside accident came as Beijing attempts to expand its navy

By 

Michael R. Gordon

 

Sept. 26, 2024 11:00 am ET

 

WASHINGTON—China’s newest nuclear-powered attack submarine sank in the spring, a major setback for one of the country’s priority weapons programs, U.S. officials said.

The episode, which Chinese authorities scrambled to cover up and hasn’t previously been disclosed, occurred at a shipyard near Wuhan in late May or early June.

It comes as China has been pushing to expand its navy, including its fleet of nuclear-powered submarines. 

The Pentagon has cast China as its principal long-term “pacing challenge,” and U.S. officials say that Beijing has been using political and military pressure to try to coerce Taiwan, a separately governed island that Beijing claims as part of its territory.

China says its goal in building a world-class military is to deter aggression and safeguard its overseas interests. A spokesman for the Chinese embassy didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment.

A satellite image of Wuchang Shipyard in Wuhan, China, on June 13. PHOTO: PLANET LABS PBC

The U.S. doesn’t know if the sub was carrying nuclear fuel at the time it sank, but experts outside the U.S. government said that was likely. 

Undersea technology has long been an area of U.S. advantage, but China has been pushing hard to narrow the gap. 

China has been moving to diversify the production of nuclear-powered submarines. Production has been centered in the northeastern city of Huludao, but China is now moving to manufacture nuclear-powered attack submarines at the Wuchang Shipyard near Wuhan. 

Beijing had 48 diesel-powered attack subs and six nuclear-powered attack subs at the end of 2022, according to a Pentagon report issued last year on China’s military power, 

That report said that China’s aim in developing new attack submarines, surface ships and naval aircraft is to counter efforts by the U.S. and its partners to come to Taiwan’s aid during a conflict and to achieve “maritime superiority” within the first island chain, a string of territory from the Japanese archipelago through Taiwan and the Philippines to the South China Sea.

The Zhou-class vessel that sank is the first of a new class of Chinese nuclear-powered subs and features a distinctive X-shaped stern, which is designed to make the vessel more maneuverable. 

The sub was built by China State Shipbuilding Corp., a state-owned company, and was observed alongside a pier on the Yangtze River in late May when it was undergoing its final equipping before going to sea. 

After the sinking, large floating cranes arrived in early June to salvage the sub from the river bed, according to satellite photos of the site.

A satellite image of Wuchang Shipyard on May 16. PHOTO: PLANET LABS PBC

A satellite image of Wuchang Shipyard on June 15. PHOTO: PLANET LABS PBC

“The sinking of a new nuclear sub that was produced at a new yard will slow China’s plans to grow its nuclear submarine fleet,” said Brent Sadler, a senior research fellow at the Heritage Foundation, a Washington think tank, and a retired U.S. Navy nuclear submarine officer. “This is significant.” 

Neither the People’s Liberation Army, as the Chinese military is known, nor local authorities, have acknowledged the episode.

“It’s not surprising that the PLA Navy would try to conceal the fact that their new first-in-class nuclear-powered attack submarine sank pierside,” said a senior U.S. defense official. “In addition to the obvious questions about training standards and equipment quality, the incident raises deeper questions about the PLA’s internal accountability and oversight of China’s defense industry, which has long been plagued by corruption.”

The first public indication that something was amiss at the shipyard near Wuhan came in the summer when Thomas Shugart, a former U.S. submarine officer and an adjunct senior fellow at the Center for a New American Security, wrote a series of social-media posts noting the unusual activity of the floating cranes, which was captured by commercial satellite imagery.

Shugart surmised that there might have been an incident that involved a new type of submarine, but he didn’t know at the time that it was nuclear-powered. 

“Can you imagine a U.S. nuclear submarine sinking in San Diego and the government hushes it up and doesn’t tell anybody about it? I mean, Holy Cow!” Shugart said in an interview this week with The Wall Street Journal.

While the submarine was salvaged, it will likely take many months before it can be put to sea.

“The whole boat would be full of water,” Shugart said. “You’d have to clean out all the electronics. The electric motors may need to be replaced. It would be a lot of work.”

American officials haven’t detected any indication that Chinese officials have sampled the water or nearby environment for radiation. It is possible Chinese personnel were killed or injured when the sub sank, but U.S. officials say they don’t know if there were casualties. 

Shugart said that the risk of a nuclear leak was likely to be low as the sub hadn’t ventured out to sea and its reactors were probably not operating at a high power level. 

The U.S. has suffered similar setbacks, which proved costly. In 1969, the nuclear-powered USS Guitarro was moored at a shipyard in California when it sank following a series of mistakes by construction workers. It wasn’t officially commissioned until 32 months after its sinking.

Write to Michael R. Gordon at [email protected]

Copyright ©2024 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved. 87990cbe856818d5eddac44c7b1cdeb8

Appeared in the September 27, 2024, print edition as 'China’s Newest Nuclear Sub Sank In Spring'.

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[MeanMachine]

Meni je vest bila cudna jer pod tim imenom nema nikakve nuklearne podmornice a da se radi o nekakvoj novoj podmornici, konkretno Zang klasa podmornica, jedino sto nalazim je Sang klasa a to je 094 koji nije najnovija kineska nuklearna podmornica. Plus sto Wuhan brodogradilistu ne prave nuklearne podmornice. Ceka se:

http://www.hisutton.com/

Edited September 27 by MeanMachine