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Rat u Ukrajini


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Message added by Lobotomija,

Ovim disclaimerom označavamo temu o Ukrajini kao "ozbiljnu". Sve što se od forumaša traži je da joj tako pristupaju. Zabranjeno je:

 

- Kačenje lažnih informacija.

- Relativizacije.

- Negiranje ukrajinske nacije.

- Izvrtanje činjenica.

- Floodovanje linkovima i tvitovima.

- Zabranjeno je kačenje uznemirujućih fotografija i videa.

 

Moderacija će zauzeti neutralni stav, što znači da su sva pisanja dozvoljena ako su u skladu sa tačkama iznad. Stavovi moderatora koji učestvuju u diskusijama se smatraju kao "lični" i nemaju veze sa obavljanjem moderatorskog posla. Potrudite se da vesti budu istinite i iz relevantnih izvora. Ako se desi da nešto imate neprovereno, samo naglasite to u postu. Zadržaćemo mogućnost nekih izmena ako bude bilo neophodno.

 

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1 hour ago, Devil In My Pants said:

Da ti mslo prepravim.

 

 

Ucitavas. Red bi bio da i tebe malo posalju na odmor od foruma.

 

Da te podsetim general Mili kad si ti pisao ds Rusija ima daleko veće gubitke reče da su vojni gubici obe strane isti. Jel general Mili "neutralan".

 

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4 minutes ago, MeanMachine said:

 

Ucitavas. Red bi bio da i tebe malo posalju na odmor od foruma.

 

Da te podsetim general Mili kad si ti pisao ds Rusija ima daleko veće gubitke reče da su vojni gubici obe strane isti. Jel general Mili "neutralan".

 

Vise sam na odmoru nego na forumu.

 

Nebitno, ali cenim 100k KIA sa obe strane.."odokativno".

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5 minutes ago, Devil In My Pants said:

Vise sam na odmoru nego na forumu.

 

Nebitno, ali cenim 100k KIA sa obe strane.."odokativno".

 

Jeste to sam i napisao. Laička procena a ti odmah lepiš etiketu. Problem je što odnos gubitaka nije takav ko npr što je bilo u Finskoj zima 1939/1940

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Nemački Leo 2 tenkovi su u Ukrajini kaže Šolc. Sledeće što je na programu je 100-tinak Leo 1 tenkova koje zajedno šalju NEM, HOL i DAN.

 

Ovaj video što Rusi plasiraju kao navodni zločina Ukrajinaca na civilima je geolociran u južnom delu grada Donjecka. Još jedan patetičan pokušaj da svoje zločine prikriju.

 

Orlando Blum posetio Ukrajinu. On je ambasador dobre volje UNICEF-a.

 

Osvanuo je video sa gomilom mrtvih rusa u Bahmutu, ako sam dobro geolocirao jugozapadni deo grada. Na snimku ima par desetina mrtvih od kojih su par njih moguće ukrajinci (svetlije uniforme). Neću kačiti link ali obzirom da ga prenose svi živi kanali neće vam biti teško da ga nađete.

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Z92

 

Quote

21:42

Ukrajinci tvrde da Si-35 menja situaciju na bojnom polju

Ruski borbeni avioni četvrte generacije Su-35 povećavaju rusku dominaciju u ratnoj zoni, što bi moglo biti zabrinjavajuća promena za Ukrajinu i njene partnere.

21:41

Uništen S-300 VSU

Ruska avijacija sa leve obale Hersonske oblasti danas je radila za 5 plus! S-300 VSU je pogođen na desnoj obali u rejonu naselja Davidov Brod, ujutru. Antiradarska raketa. Lokalne "oči" su prijavile događaj.

 

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Nemci ove godine dupliraju pomoć i poslaće Ukrajini 5,4 milijarde evra a u narednim godinama smatraju da će pomoć dostići 15 milijardi evra godišnje.

 

1600 tenkova koje je Putin najavio u naredne tri godine se ne odnosi na modernizovane nego i na novo proizvedene. Dakle ako umanjimo tu cifru jer je sigurno malo dodao to mu ga dođe do 500 tenkova godišnje mogu da pošalju na front iz fabrika.

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Devil In My Pants said:

Rusi ce biti opasniji kad skontaju da im treba mnogo vise oruzja. To nece niti odmah, ali bolje spreviti nego leciti.

 

Treba ih napasti, smeniti vlast i onda rafiti na miru. 

 

Uticaj i sranja prave svuda po svetu  iznutra jedu drzave kao nas npr..

Sto bi rekao Informer:

Ništa više nece biti isto, Devil uputio snažnu poruku Kremlju!

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A jel neko video kineski predlog? I koliko mi se čini to je predlog za primirje a ne konačni odgovor. Prilično čudno da Kinezi kažu da Ukrajina prihvati da je Donbas ruski jer kako onda mogu da smatraju Tajvan delom Kine?

 

Meni deluje ko da je taj think tank iskoristio kineski predlog primirja da plasira ideju rešenja rata. Pošto su to Reganovci i Trumpovci za njih je Kina daleko veći problem nego Rusija pa ne čudi što bi batalili podršku Ukrajini ako bi to omogućilo da Rusiju koliko toliko odvoje od Kine.

 

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1 minute ago, Dragan said:

Kineski plan je na nivou ucesnica za Miss USA.

Diplomatski nacin da se nista ne kaze osim - "znamo da plan nema sanse, ali eto mi smo se trudili da bude mir".

Kladim se da bi mi ovde na forumu napravili bolji plan.

 

Jel ima negde tekst predlog primirja?

 

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48 minutes ago, AgroLaki said:

Dal su ludi da prihvate ovaj plan, mozda pre mesec dana. Izvesno je da Bahmut nece pasti, a nakon prolecne ofanzive, mogu da ponude Rusima da se povuku iz Donbasa, ako demilitarizuju Krim. 

 

Prokineski portal... preskociti odmah clanak. 

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1 hour ago, MeanMachine said:

 

Jel ima negde tekst predlog primirja?

 

Текст кинеског „мировног плана“ за Украјину

Већина медија је критиковала кинески „мировни план“ – можда и с правом. Али нису рекли шта је заправо у њему.

Spoiler

Englischer Original-Wortlaut von Chinas Position für einen Frieden, 24.2.2023
(deutsche Übersetzung weiter unten)


China’s Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

1. Respecting the sovereignty of all countries. Universally recognized international law, including the purposes and principles of the United Nations Charter, must be strictly observed. The sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all countries must be effectively upheld. All countries, big or small, strong or weak, rich or poor, are equal members of the international community. All parties should jointly uphold the basic norms governing international relations and defend international fairness and justice. Equal and uniform application of international law should be promoted, while double standards must be rejected. 

2. Abandoning the Cold War mentality. The security of a country should not be pursued at the expense of others. The security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding military blocs. The legitimate security interests and concerns of all countries must be taken seriously and addressed properly. There is no simple solution to a complex issue. All parties should, following the vision of common, comprehensive, cooperative and sustainable security and bearing in mind the long-term peace and stability of the world, help forge a balanced, effective and sustainable European security architecture. All parties should oppose the pursuit of one’s own security at the cost of others’ security, prevent bloc confrontation, and work together for peace and stability on the Eurasian Continent.

3. Ceasing hostilities. Conflict and war benefit no one. All parties must stay rational and exercise restraint, avoid fanning the flames and aggravating tensions, and prevent the crisis from deteriorating further or even spiraling out of control. All parties should support Russia and Ukraine in working in the same direction and resuming direct dialogue as quickly as possible, so as to gradually deescalate the situation and ultimately reach a comprehensive ceasefire. 

4. Resuming peace talks. Dialogue and negotiation are the only viable solution to the Ukraine crisis. All efforts conducive to the peaceful settlement of the crisis must be encouraged and supported. The international community should stay committed to the right approach of promoting talks for peace, help parties to the conflict open the door to a political settlement as soon as possible, and create conditions and platforms for the resumption of negotiation. China will continue to play a constructive role in this regard. 

5. Resolving the humanitarian crisis. All measures conducive to easing the humanitarian crisis must be encouraged and supported. Humanitarian operations should follow the principles of neutrality and impartiality, and humanitarian issues should not be politicized. The safety of civilians must be effectively protected, and humanitarian corridors should be set up for the evacuation of civilians from conflict zones. Efforts are needed to increase humanitarian assistance to relevant areas, improve humanitarian conditions, and provide rapid, safe and unimpeded humanitarian access, with a view to preventing a humanitarian crisis on a larger scale. The UN should be supported in playing a coordinating role in channeling humanitarian aid to conflict zones.

6. Protecting civilians and prisoners of war (POWs). Parties to the conflict should strictly abide by international humanitarian law, avoid attacking civilians or civilian facilities, protect women, children and other victims of the conflict, and respect the basic rights of POWs. China supports the exchange of POWs between Russia and Ukraine, and calls on all parties to create more favorable conditions for this purpose.

7. Keeping nuclear power plants safe. China opposes armed attacks against nuclear power plants or other peaceful nuclear facilities, and calls on all parties to comply with international law including the Convention on Nuclear Safety (CNS) and resolutely avoid man-made nuclear accidents. China supports the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) in playing a constructive role in promoting the safety and security of peaceful nuclear facilities.

8. Reducing strategic risks. Nuclear weapons must not be used and nuclear wars must not be fought. The threat or use of nuclear weapons should be opposed. Nuclear proliferation must be prevented and nuclear crisis avoided. China opposes the research, development and use of chemical and biological weapons by any country under any circumstances.

9. Facilitating grain exports. All parties need to implement the Black Sea Grain Initiative signed by Russia, Türkiye, Ukraine and the UN fully and effectively in a balanced manner, and support the UN in playing an important role in this regard. The cooperation initiative on global food security proposed by China provides a feasible solution to the global food crisis.

10. Stopping unilateral sanctions. Unilateral sanctions and maximum pressure cannot solve the issue; they only create new problems. China opposes unilateral sanctions unauthorized by the UN Security Council. Relevant countries should stop abusing unilateral sanctions and “long-arm jurisdiction” against other countries, so as to do their share in deescalating the Ukraine crisis and create conditions for developing countries to grow their economies and better the lives of their people.

11. Keeping industrial and supply chains stable. All parties should earnestly maintain the existing world economic system and oppose using the world economy as a tool or weapon for political purposes. Joint efforts are needed to mitigate the spillovers of the crisis and prevent it from disrupting international cooperation in energy, finance, food trade and transportation and undermining the global economic recovery.

12. Promoting post-conflict reconstruction. The international community needs to take measures to support post-conflict reconstruction in conflict zones. China stands ready to provide assistance and play a constructive role in this endeavor.

 

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Pa ta tačka 1 važi i bez tog sporazuma pa vidimo da je Rusi ne zarezuju 2%. Problem tog plana je što on Rusiju na ništa ne obavezuje dok sa druge strane Ukrajina i NATO treba da prihvate nekoliko teških stvari. 

 

Taj plan ima za cilj da nas vrati u stanje pre februara 2022. godine ali sa duplo više okupiranih teritorija koje ostaju Rusima. Ta tačka 1 ih ne obavezuje da napuste okupirano nego samo da imaju to u vidu u pregovorima o miru koji bi nastupili ko zna kada. A ako se ne postigne mirovni ugovor onda nemaju nikakvu obavezu u vezi sa tom tačkom.

 

Dakle dobili bismo primirje da se Rusija ponovo naoruža, obuči mnogo veću armiju pa da pokuša sa novom agresijom. A Ukrajina samo gubi u svemu tome, nema ona ni sada neke velike šanse ali u drugom ratu ne bi imala nikakve jer bi se Rusija mnogo bolje pripremila za isti. To je u suštini samo ono o čemu sam ja već pisao, kineski interes da se rat završi kako bi svetska ekonomija ponovo krenula brže da raste jer to njima odgovara jer na taj način raste i njihov izvoz koji vuče celu njihovu ekonomiju.

 

Kina još uvek nije pozvala Zelenskog tako da verovatno još uvek ima nekih pregovora ali ako nije bilo nikakvog napretka posle posete Moskvi najverovatnije od tog plana neće biti ništa. Dogovor Ukrajine sa Kinom i Rusijom, bez zapada, bi bila glupost na kvadrat jer bi time zapad jednostavno otkačio njih i onda bi i oni došli u poziciju Belorusije da se ne pitaju ništa u sopstvenoj državi. No Zelenski je od početka zauzeo ispravan stav da očekuje zvaničan poziv i objašnjenje tog plana. Bio je neki kontakt ministara spoljnih poslova pre 10 dana ali od tada  ništa zvanično.

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35 minutes ago, MeanMachine said:

I šta je problem? Lepo tačka 1 je ono što Ukrajinci hoće i što Kinezi itekako smatraju bitnim. Ostalo je manje bitno.

 

1. Respecting the sovereignty of all countries.

 

Problem je u tome što, eto, ukrajinski agresori ne žele da se povuku sa "dela ruske teritorije kojeg su okupirali". 

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