Rat u Ukrajini

[Rex]

10 minutes ago, Henry Chinaski said:

Ne zvanično, ali sudeći po vjestima koje su objavljivali Washington Post, pa i Financial Times to je ono oko čega su se zvaničnici Rusije i USofA dogovorili

 

Putin nije pristao ni na zamrzavanje konflikta na postojećoj liniji fronta, tako da je priča o priznavanju Krima potpuno nebitna.

[Klotzen]

What Russia gets under Trump's proposal

1. "De jure" U.S. recognition of Russian control in Crimea.

2. "De-facto recognition" of the Russia's occupation of nearly all of Luhansk oblast and the occupied portions of Donetsk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia.

3. A promise that Ukraine will not become a member of NATO. The text notes that Ukraine could become part of the European Union.

4. The lifting of sanctions imposed since 2014.

5. Enhanced economic cooperation with the U.S., particularly in the energy and industrial sectors.

 

What Ukraine gets under Trump's proposal

1. "A robust security guarantee" involving an ad hoc group of European countries and potentially also like-minded non-European countries. The document is vague in terms of how this peacekeeping operation would function and does not mention any U.S. participation.

2. The return of the small part of Kharkiv oblast Russia has occupied.

3. Unimpeded passage of the Dnieper River, which runs along the front line in parts of southern Ukraine.

4. Compensation and assistance for rebuilding, though the document does not say where the funding will come from.

 

Other elements of the plan

1. The Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant — the largest such facility in Europe — will be considered as Ukrainian territory but operated by the U.S., with electricity supplied to both Ukraine and Russia.

2. The document references the U.S.-Ukraine minerals deal, which Trump has said will be signed on Thursday.

 

Ovo je praktično prodaja Ukrajine Rusiji. Manje više ono što je još u januaru procurilo, jedino novo je priznanje Krima. Ovo Zelenski ne može nikako prihvatiti osim kao deo kapitulacije ako do toga dođe. Ukrajina ne dobija čvrste garancije bezbednosti i to je glavni problem ovog plana. Nema sigurnosti za Ukrajinu da je Rusija ponovo neće napasti za par godina kada naštanca oružje. Ovo je samo "poluvreme". Tačke 1. i 4. su verovatno namerno ovako napisane  da sutra ne moraju ni to da ispune a to je jedino što makar zvuči dobro za Ukrajinu.

 

Teška odluka je pred Zelenskim, on ovo mora da odbije samo treba da odigra diplomatski da to direktno ne kaže. Ja bih recimo rekao prihvatam sve ovo ali pod uslovom da uđemo u NATO istog momenta kada se potpiše mirovni ugovor. To bi bio ogroman ustupak Ukrajine ali bi članstvom u NATO mogli Rusiji zauvek da kažu "Do svidanja" i da mogu da krenu da grade neku svoju budućnost.

 

Od ovog ugovora im je bolje i da budu potpuno okupirani pa da se nadaju da će se nekad u budućnosti osloboditi jarma.

[Beonegro]

4 hours ago, djura.net said:

Ovo je ubedljivo najnormalnija poruka Trumpa od ihahahaaa. Toliko normalna da mislim da mu je hakovan nalog. Ne vidim da preti bilo cime ili bilo kome, samo kaze - dogovorite se. 

 

Svejedno nije lišena totalno očiglednih ruskih propagandnih kvaziargumenata, konkretno rezona da je Krim ruski zato što je na njemu ruska mornarička baza. 

 

EDIT: Zelenski je rekao da je američki predlog suprotan ustavu Ukrajine i da samim time nema o čemu da se priča, mislim da je krasnov dobio izgovor koji je tražio da obustavi svaku pomoć Ukrajini i da potpuno se potpuno outuje kao KGB asset.

Edited April 23 by Beonegro

[djura.net]

cnn

 

Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky said that “emotions have run high today” after talks on the ongoing war in his country were held in London.

He also shared a screenshot of former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo’s 2018 Crimea Declaration which rejected Russia’s occupation of the peninsula.

“Ukraine will always act in accordance with its Constitution and we are absolutely sure that our partners — in particular the USA — will act in line with its strong decisions,” he said.

 

A spokesperson from the United Kingdom’s foreign office said the talks were “productive and successful and significant progress was made on reaching a common position on next steps,” according to a statement.

[Darko]

@Henry Chinaski mislim da bi Zelenski pristao da izgubi Krim i čak neke druge teritorije ako bi dobio sigurnosne garancije. Mada su mi ovakve izjave od njega glupe i daju municiju Trampu. Ne vidim kako može da vrati Krim i ostale izgubljene teritorije, čak i sa pomoću nekih NATO zemalja. 

[Klotzen]

18 minutes ago, Darko said:

@Henry Chinaski mislim da bi Zelenski pristao da izgubi Krim i čak neke druge teritorije ako bi dobio sigurnosne garancije. Mada su mi ovakve izjave od njega glupe i daju municiju Trampu. Ne vidim kako može da vrati Krim i ostale izgubljene teritorije, čak i sa pomoću nekih NATO zemalja. 

 

Svestan je on situacije u kojoj se nalazi i da nešto mora da da samo to se ne govori javno jer će putin odma da traži više. Ovo što je Tramp "ugovorio" to je mogao i on sam da dogovori sa Rusima, možda i bolji dil. Ukrajina se neće obavezivati da prizna kontrolu Rusiji nad svojom teritorijom jer je to skoro pa prinanje te teritorije kao Ruske. To mora biti izbačeno, dovoljno je primirje a SAD ako hoće da priznaje kontrolu ili puni suverenitet samo neka izvoli, to će biti odlično za njen imidž 🙂

 

 

[Beonegro]

7 hours ago, Darko said:

mislim da bi Zelenski pristao da izgubi Krim i čak neke druge teritorije ako bi dobio sigurnosne garancije

1) Zelenski po postojećem ukrajinskom ustavu ne može da pristane ni na kakve teritorijalne ustupke, dakle nije samo stvar toga šta Zelenski hoće ili neće. Ne kažem da do toga ne može da se dođe kroz proces koji podrazumijeva prethodnu promjenu ustava, ali Trump i njegovi traže momentalne rezultate, ignorišući pritom zakon i proceduru (kao i u svemu što rade, uostalom).

2) Amerikanci ne nude nikakve sigurnosne garancije.

[Darko]

14 minutes ago, Beonegro said:

Amerikanci ne nude nikakve sigurnosne garancije.

Znam, zato i nema vajde priznavati bilo šta bez toga. Samo kupuje vreme Rusima da ponovo napadnu kada je vreme za to. Više sam mislio na to kako izgleda neukima koji glasaju za Trampa, al nema veze. 

[djura.net]

bbc

 

Russian missile and drone attacks on the Ukrainian capital Kyiv kill at least nine people, with another 77 injured.

 

Russia also attacks other parts of the country. 

 

In total, the air force says it shot down 48 missiles and 64 drones from Russia.

 

The attack involved 11 ballistic missiles, 55 cruise missiles, four glide bombs and 145 drones, the Ukrainian air force says.

 

Of those, seven ballistic missiles, 37 cruise missiles, four glide bombs and 64 Shahed drones were intercepted, and 68 drones not carrying explosives fell down without causing any damage, it adds.

 

F-16 and French-made Mirage jets shot down dozens of targets in repelling the attack, the Ukrainian air force says.

[djura.net]

 

Pogodjena balisticka raketa iznad Kijeva nocas, Reuters photo

[Beonegro]

The Atlantic objasnio. Uprkos krasnovu, velika je Amerika, dok god ima ovakve novinare i novine.

 

Trump’s Plan to Sell Out Ukraine to Russia

His proposal to end the war isn’t a peace plan—it’s a reward for aggression.

 

Donald Trump said on the campaign trail that he would make peace between Ukraine and Russia in a day. Three months later, he’s behind schedule, and his plan now is to end the fighting quickly by selling out Ukraine and its people to Russian President Vladimir Putin. The proposal that Trump, Vice President J. D. Vance, and Secretary of State Marco Rubio are pushing is not a framework for peace, but a rich and bloody reward to Moscow for three years of aggression and war crimes.

 

The Russians might do some performative caviling, but the Americans are offering Putin a dream of a deal If Trump has his way, Washington will lift sanctions against Russia; both sides will accept a cease-fire in place (leaving Russian troops on newly conquered Ukrainian territory), and the United States will agree to recognize Crimea as part of Russia (leaving the Kremlin with full ownership of previously conquered territory).

 

For this, Ukraine gets basically nothing, except a vaporous security guarantee from an American president who has made clear his hostility to Ukraine and its leaders, an animus that became especially clear when Trump and Vance ambushed Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky during a White House meeting last month. The Trump “peace” plan is no such thing; it is an instrument of surrender, and the Ukrainians are unlikely to accept it.

 

Trump’s proposal would functionally destroy Ukraine, which would limp away from the deal as a vulnerable rump state, shorn of some 20 percent of its territory and millions of its citizens. It would cede control over its foreign policy by promising never to join NATO—an ironic Russian demand, given how starkly Putin’s invasion has reminded the world why alliances such as NATO must continue to exist. But NATO membership is a distant issue compared with the immediate problem: If Kyiv agrees to Trump’s proposal, whatever is left of the Ukrainian state will soon be an easy target for the Kremlin. Once the Russian economy recovers and Russia’s forces catch their breath, Putin will finish the job of conquering Ukraine with even greater vengeance and violence. Time and space are on Moscow’s side, and Trump intends to give Putin plenty of both.

 

The Americans have threatened to walk away from the process if either side refuses Trump’s deal, but no one can believe that this is even a token attempt to pressure Moscow. The White House is aiming its rhetorical fire squarely at Zelensky. Earlier today, Trump ranted at Zelensky on his Truth Social media platform, telling the Ukrainian president that he “can have Peace or, he can fight for another three years before losing the whole Country. We are very close to a Deal, but the man with ‘no cards to play’ should now, finally, GET IT DONE.” Zelensky, for his part, continues to insist on an “immediate, full, and unconditional cease-fire” before he agrees to further negotiations, a position Trump will likely use as a pretext for abandoning further talks.

 

Vance, meanwhile, has adopted a classic position of moral equivalence, as if the people shooting at each other—and their reasons for fighting—are indistinguishable. “The only way to really stop the killing,” he said in India today, “is for the armies to both put down their weapons, to freeze this thing, and to get on with the business of actually building a better Russia and a better Ukraine.”

 

(The vice president might just be toeing Trump’s line, but if his previous statements on international affairs are a guide, he really does seem to have a dismally simplistic understanding of geopolitics. He showcased this strategic shallowness during his embarrassing speech in Munich in February, when he scolded America’s allies about their domestic politics, as if the Europeans were merely a collection of unimportant U.S. congressional delegations.)

 

We need not invoke World War II comparisons to recognize the moral and political vacuity of the Trump-Vance position. Instead, imagine intervening in other wars of aggression, such as the Korean War in 1950, and telling the embattled southern forces after Pyongyang’s massive invasion that both sides “need to put down their weapons and build a better North and South Korea.” Or perhaps after Iraq attempted to erase Kuwait from the map in 1990, America and the United Nations should have told the states of the Persian Gulf that sometimes countries just disappear, and that both Saddam Hussein’s army and what was left of Kuwait’s forces needed to put their guns down.

 

Trump is not a fair broker: He is acting as a de facto Russian ally and making demands as Moscow’s proxy. Perhaps Europe and other nations will be able to fill the void left by American cowardice, but no one should blame the Ukrainians if they refuse to bow to Washington’s demand that they accept a grim destiny as Moscow’s newest serfs.

 

EDIT

Kad smo već kod medija, evo jedan čerčilovski billboard The Telegrapha: 

 

 

Edited April 24 by Beonegro

[Rex]

Odličan Atlantik. A kačio sam ja bilbord na prethodnoj strani, sa člankom WP-a u kome se taksativno prikazuju koordinisani napori Trampa da nagradi Putina i oslobodi njegov režim svake odgovornosti za agresiju i ratne zločine.

[djura.net]

cnn

 

Trump writes ‘Vladimir, STOP!’ after Russia launches deadliest strikes on Kyiv since last summer.

 

 

“The strike objectives were achieved. All targets were hit,” Moscow said.

[𝓑𝓪𝓫𝔂]

 

🙄

[Don Dusko]

Vladimir=Volodymyr

[ras kass]

 

 

[djura.net]

bbc

 

The mayor of Kyiv, Vitali Klitschko, has told the BBC that Ukraine may have to give up land as part of a peace deal with Russia, amid a growing pressure from President Donald Trump to accept territorial concessions.

 

"One of the scenarios is… to give up territory. It's not fair. But for the peace, temporary peace, maybe it can be a solution, temporary," he said.

[djura.net]

bbc

 

Multiple Russian sources say General Yaroslav Moskalik, deputy head of the main operational department at the Russian General Staff, has been killed in a car bomb attack in Moscow.

No official confirmation yet.

Russian official news agency TASS quotes security services as confirming that a bomb was the cause of the explosion in Moscow’s eastern suburb of Balashikha.

[033zero330]

U skladu sa imenom.

 

 

[Dzoni_m]

https://youtu.be/47VqCD5AE9s?si=QDmRJNV1l3XFI40_

[Beonegro]

 

Ukrajinsko-evropski kontra-predlog američkom predlogu:

 

OFFICIAL-SENSITIVE

Russia-Ukraine Deal Framework

Ceasefire:

Commit to a full and unconditional ceasefire in the sky, on land and at sea.

Both sides immediately enter into negotiations on technical implementation with the participation of the US and European countries. This is in parallel to preparation of the agenda and modalities for a full peace deal.

Ceasefire monitoring, led by the US and supported by third countries.

Russia must unconditionally return all deported and illegally displaced Ukrainian children. Exchange of all prisoners of war (the principle of "all for all"). Russia must release all civilian prisoners.

Security guarantees for Ukraine:

Ukraine receives robust security guarantees including from the US (Article 5-like agreement), while there is no consensus among Allies on NATO membership.

No restrictions on the Ukrainian Defense Forces.

The guarantor states will be an ad hoc group of European countries and willing non-European countries. No restrictions on the presence, weapons and operations of friendly foreign forces on the territory of Ukraine.

Ukraine pursues accession to the EU.

Territory:

Territorial issues will be discussed and resolved after a full and unconditional ceasefire.

Territorial negotiations start from the basis of the line of control.

Ukraine regains control of the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant with US involvement, and also the Kakhovka Dam

Ukraine enjoys unhindered passages on the Dnieper River and control of the KinburnSpit.

Economics:

US and Ukraine implement economic cooperation/minerals agreement.

Ukraine will be fully reconstructed and compensated financially, including through Russian sovereign assets that will remain frozen until Russia compensates damage to Ukraine.

US sanctions imposed on Russia since 2014 may be subject to gradual easing after a sustainable peace is achieved and subject to resumption in the event of a breach of the peace agreement (snapback).

[MeanMachine]

50 minutes ago, Beonegro said:

 

Ukrajinsko-evropski kontra-predlog američkom predlogu:

 

 

 

mozda gresim ali tako mi deluje jer ova kontra je bukvalno ono sto Trump zeli.

[Klotzen]

Trampov plan je i planiran tako da Ukrajina ne može da ga prihvati. Zelenski je to shvatio i odgovorio sa planom za koji zna da putin na njega neće pristati jer ovaj plan zaista jeste nešto između jer ostavlja Ukrajini prostor da se odrekne neke teritorije ako dobije bezbednosne garancije (to su tačke koje su putinu neprihvatljive jer onda ne može da proglasi pobedu) . Takođe vraćanje brane Kahovke pod kontrolu Ukrajine je takođe teško prihvatljiva za putina jer ta brana kontroliše i dotok pitke vode na Krim i Herson. Takođe je problematično i finansiranje obnove od Ruskog novca jer bi to moglo da se protumači da Rusija plaća ratnu štetu kao poražena.

 

E sad ako se izbace neke gluposti iz trampovog i neke tačke iz plana zelenskog mogu doći do kompromisa negde na sredini no po meni svaka šansa za mir je izgubljena kada je Tramp rasturio jedinstvo zapada jer sada putin traži nerealno mnogo u odnosu na svoje mogućnosti i to je najveća prepreka ma koliko se tramp trudio da nam objasni da je najveći problem Zelenski. Rat po Trampovom planu može da se završi samo ako je Ukrajina spremna da iz rata izađe kao 100% poražena zemlja a to se po mom mišljenju neće desiti, bar ne ove godine. Realno to što Tramp nudi je isto kao i da izgube rat i postave im nekog novog Janukoviča na vlast.

[Dragan]

Stabilna budala ponovo jase.

 

Trump: Ukrajina je kriva za rat, a Krim ostaje ruski

[MeanMachine]

@Klotzen

 

Ovo sto Zelenski je predlozio je kontra Trumpovom predlogu i prakticno srednji prst, sto je zadnje sto Ukrajini treba u ovom momentu. Putin ako bude odgovorio na isti ja cu biti vrlo zacudjen.

 

Po meni Zelenski je mogao da uvije u obladu odgovor ili da ide na ono prosto razmatramo i predlazemo pregovore oko ovog predloga a ne uzmi ili ostavi. Ovako daje alibi dnevnoj dozi da pred americkim javnim mnjenjem prestavi Ukrajinu kao jedinog krivca sto nema mira i da bi se do mira doslo Amerika mora da prekine da salje oruzije.

Edited April 25 by MeanMachine