Bliski Istok

[shonke]

Ovde je doslovce receno da Gazu treba poravnati, da su civili i deca legitimne mete.Nisam napisao da si ti to rekla, tebi licno misam nista podmetnuo.Da podrzavas takve stavove, podrzavas.
Kakvu teroristicku grupu spominjes
zar nije potvrdjeno od forumskih mudraca da to nije nikakva grupa vec vecina Palestinaca, ukljucujuci zene i decu.
Sa boldovanim se slazem, svaka druga drzava bi isto reagovala

Prosto nije tačno da je rečeno da gazu treba poravnati. Ako sam propustio taj post, molim za citat.
Izvrtanje je najlakši "sport". Niko ne priča da su civli legitimna meta. Govori se o tome da se hamas krije iza civila, istra ih ispred sebe a decu često regrutuje i koristi za akcije. Da si idf vojnik na terenu i da se nadjes oči u oči sa nekim klincem od 15 god koji ima a.p. uperenu u tebe, šta bi uradio?

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[shonke]

Pa naravno da sam izrazila sumnju, imaju najbolju zastitu na svetu, a ovi probili zid, i 6 sati se niko ne pojavi. Jbt pa ja da sam izraelac u izraelu, debelo bi postavila to pitanje pogotovo da mi je neko nastradao. Postavljala sam mnoga pitanja dugackih 4 godina ratovanja plus naknadnih godina za sopstvenu vladu sta i sto radi, a ne da slucajno ne taknem bazicno pitanje neke druge drzave. Zbog cega ne postavljati pitanja nego uzimati sve servirano - hladno?
 
Drugo, 7 oktobar je prosao, desila se jeziva stvar, jeziva. Ali se tu nije zavrsilo, a vi se ljudi ponasate kao da je samo taj dan bitan, samo da su ta deca bitna, samo da su ti ljudi bitni. Pa sta da vam kazem, meni su bitni svi nevini, a ima ih na obe strane mnogo, i vecina nastradalih je nevinih. Sta je f. to, osim terorizma i genocida?! 
 
Imate problem sa definicijom genocid, pa i treba da ga imate, treba da crvenite uvek kada se pomene, jer ste deo grupe koja je sprovodila takve zlocine bez ili sa vasom saglasnoscu. Isto tako su i mnogi jevreji deo te grupe koja je odlucila da baca bombe i ubija neku tamo drugu (nebitnu) decu. Posle tog 7 oktobra su im rekli da se isele, ok, hoce da ociste od terorista, ali zasto im onda bombarduju kampove gde su se iselili, cemo onda iseljenje. Mislim, jel stavljate vi ikada prst na celo, ili ste odlucili Izrael - good guys with guns, Palestinian - bad guys with gun i nema sredine, nema nevinih, svi krivi i svi ispravni?! I onda zilion objasnjenja, tipa muslimani hoce da istrebe jevreje, to zele svi do jednog... a da je izrael hteo da istrebi palestince iz gaze, pobio bi ih sve jer eto tehnolski mogu (to pisete). Pa da su hteli muslimani da istrebe izrael, ako pogledas mapu, izrael bi nestao sa lica zemlje sa sve tom tehnologijom, ako bi ovi totalno krenuli u teroristicke napade ili rat ili sta vec... 
 
Iskreno da vam kazem, razumem ja da drzite stranu nekom, da zelite da se izrael ratosilja terorizma (iako sam ja izrazila sumnju da se tek sada to moze desiti, ne zato sto je izrael u pitanju, nego zato sto se prolivenom krvlju ne pravi mir, pa zivite u tome 30 godina). 
 
Ja ne ravanam jevreje sa onim sto radi izraelska vlada ovog momenta, a ti kako hoces... samo sjasite sa tim optuzbama. Ako nisam dovoljno cool (previse sam levo) za forum, banujte me. 
 
Cak i to levo se ovde (woke malo pa malo) pojavljuje. Jbt ne znate vise sta da prikacite ljudima koji nece da se povinuju vasem ubedjenju da iskljucivo moramo zauzeti jednu stranu. Woke je definicija kako je shvatate. Ja je shvatam tako da me ne interesuje sta drugi ljudi rade sa svom zivotima dogod nikog ne ugrozavaju i ne mislim da iko indokrinira decu, osim nacionalista koji prave od novih generacija debile, koji ce nam otvarati nove frontove ratovanja. 

Kako to misliš da mi treba da crvenimo zbog genocida u Srebrenici i ako nismo to podržavali ili učestvovali u tome a ti ne treba zbog toga da crvenis?
I kako onda kažeš da ne ravnas jevreje sa onim što radi njihova država?
Zašto toliko kontradiktorinih rečenica?

BTW, Izrael u ovom trenutku ne čini genocid. Možeš i ti i ostali advokati palestinskih interesa da vrtite tu priču do besvesti, prosto nije tako.

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[Beonegro]

9 hours ago, McLeod said:

 

Ne svi, ali ogromna vecina. Mislim da treba dokazati suprotno posle scena koje smo gledali pre mesec dana.

Nemoj da misliš da je ovo iole relevatnan odgovor.

[shonke]

Vrlo je problematicno na osnovu anketa i snimaka sa drustvenih mreza odredjivati misljenje vecine ili manjine - svako ce naci opravdanje za svoje ubedjenje.

Jbg nemaju tamo ipsos da uradi "relevantnu" anketu. Dotle moramo da koristimo podatke koje imamo.

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[Kronostime]

1 minute ago, shonke said:

Jbg nemaju tamo ipsos da uradi "relevantnu" anketu. Dotle moramo da koristimo podatke koje imamo.

Sent from my SM-A525F using Tapatalk
 

UN humanitarci na licu mesta nisu verodostojan izvor nego je neki Josif iz Trbusnice?

[shonke]

Un humanitarci ne sprovode ankete... A i 90% osoblja su lokalci, čisto radi info.

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[McLeod]

12 minutes ago, Beonegro said:

Nemoj da misliš da je ovo iole relevatnan odgovor.

Pa i meni je ovo sto citam od ljudi sa kojima se ne slazem irelevantno i logicki nesuvislo jer nastupa iz nekog referentnog sistema koji ne vazi za ovaj sukob (pritom ne mislim na "sta su oni njima radili" ekipu) pa nista. Znaci dok ne napuni 18 nije terorista, to sto su mnogi ubijali i klali sa manje i to sto rulja slavi terorizam 7. oktobra to nema veze. Ne mogu se primenjivati pravila igre na one koji igru ne igraju posteno.

[Smrtokapa]

9 hours ago, McLeod said:

Pa jeste besmislena, ali je besmislena zbog toga sto pokusavate da ugurate Gazu u neki referentni sistem do kog smo dosli posle WWII, pominjete zenevsku konvenciju i slicne trice i kucine.

Postoji solidan razlog da se Gaza stavlja u referentni sistem do kog smo došli posle Drugog svetskog rata, pošto se i nalazimo u nekom vremenu koje je posle Drugog svetskog rata. Te trice i kučine su ipak neko civilizacijsko dostignuće kog se ne treba tako olako odreći.

 

Ako se vratimo na običaje ratovanja iz WWII, pa onda je stvarno lako. Metodi izraelske blokade Gaze - uporedimo sa opsadom Lenjingrada i Izraelci su bukvalno sveci. Osvajanje milionskog grada gde i civili učestvuju u odbrani - evo vam Bitka za Berlin da vidite kako se to sprovodi kad su svi Nemci koji mogu da drže pušku u sastavu Volkssturm-a (btw odnos poginulih nemačkih boraca i civila bio je približno 1:1).

 

Poenta je da ne treba tak tako za norme do kojih smo došli reći puj pike ne važi, jer smo onda na neki način već svi doživeli poraz. Kad odeš na tu nizbrdicu, kola dalje sama idu naniže.

 

8 hours ago, Angelia said:

Znaci obavezno, jer idf ulazi kopneno bas zbog toga. Inace bi mogli da ravnaju Gazu do parkinga. Uz zrtve svojih vojnika

Pročitaj opet, napisao sam "ne znači obavezno" kao odgovor na tvoju rečenicu, u smislu "ne znači obavezno da je ciljanje neselektivno", dakle ostavio sam otvorenu mogućnost da se složim sa tobom.

 

8 hours ago, Angelia said:

Traze gorivo, jer bez goriva nema struje ni vode.

Opet u ovakvim slučajevima treba posmatrati kakva je potencijalna vojna korist u odnosu na posledice po nenaoružano stanovništvo.

 

8 hours ago, Angelia said:

Ja uopste nisam rekla da potencijalno nisu civili, nego da u borbi treba predpostaviti da su potencijalno teroristi, I da bi to bilo skupo za ignorisati. To si mogao da vidis I iz slicnih sukoba sa talibanima, ISIS, Irak...

Ja čak ne pričam o tome. U bliskoj borbi, na žalost, postoji ta siva zona. Ili čak zona koja nije uopšte siva, npr ovo što shonke kaže:

37 minutes ago, shonke said:

Da si idf vojnik na terenu i da se nadjes oči u oči sa nekim klincem od 15 god koji ima a.p. uperenu u tebe, šta bi uradio?

naravno da ovo nije civil već borac.

 

Ovde ne govorim o odluci koju će u sekundi doneti vojnik kome je ugrožen život, već o tome da se apriori uopšteno smatra da su civili "teroristi dok se ne dokaže suprotno" (imaš dovoljno citata na prethodnim stranama).

 

8 hours ago, Angelia said:

To uporno pokusavanje da se izvuce paralela je samo besmislena relativizacija.

Ne, upravo je suprotno. Ja sam napisao da mi je apsolutno neprihvatljivo da se nenaoružani civili apriori smatraju borcima/teroristima, ma gde da se nalaze, a "paralela" je tu da to ilustruje. Dakle, tu nema nikakve relativizacije, to važi i za Čileance ili Eskime. Apsolutno ima suprotno značenje od relativno.

 

Inače:

Quote

To uporno pokusavanje da se izvuce paralela je samo besmislena relativizacija. Izrael je napadnut, Izrael se brani. Ukrajina je napadnuta, I brani se.

primećuješ li kako ove dve rečenice interesantno zvuče kada su ovako jedna pored druge?

[Kronostime]

37 minutes ago, McLeod said:

Pa i meni je ovo sto citam od ljudi sa kojima se ne slazem irelevantno i logicki nesuvislo jer nastupa iz nekog referentnog sistema koji ne vazi za ovaj sukob (pritom ne mislim na "sta su oni njima radili" ekipu) pa nista. Znaci dok ne napuni 18 nije terorista, to sto su mnogi ubijali i klali sa manje i to sto rulja slavi terorizam 7. oktobra to nema veze. Ne mogu se primenjivati pravila igre na one koji igru ne igraju posteno.

Da li bi se slozio sa misljenjem nekog ko je iz ovakvog porodicnog miljea?

Da li je on u zabludi ili iz njegove perspektive je to nedopustivo?

 

 

Nije svaka kritika antisemitizam, niti je empatija prema civilnim zrtvama podrska Hamasu, pobogu.

[Problem sa licnim greskama]

Citao sam zanimljivu biografiju Jahje Sinwara, monstruma, koji je planirao ovaj bolesni napad Hamasa na Izrael.

4 puta osudjen na smrtnu kaznu, pusten u razmeni zarobljenika, a ironijom istorije su mu u robiji najbolji izraelski lekari uspesno izvadili 2004. tumor u mozgu i izlecili ga od gotovo sigurne smrti.

Totalni psihopata i bolesnik koji je terao svoje sledbenike da zivo zakopaju rodjake za koje je smatrao da nisu lojalni.
 

[erwin]

Quote

How Netanyahu's Hamas policy came back to haunt him — and Israel
The Israeli leader and Hamas are deadly enemies — and allies in opposing a 2-state solution

Evan Dyer, CBC News

Israelis don't agree on much, especially lately, but polling shows they mostly agree that Prime Minister Benjamin "Bibi" Netanyahu is to blame for leaving Israel unprepared for Hamas's onslaught on October 7.

The accusations aimed at Netanyahu go beyond merely failing to foresee or prevent the Hamas attack of October 7, however. Many accuse him of deliberately empowering the group for decades as part of a strategy to sabotage a two-state solution based on the principle of land for peace.

"There's been a lot of criticism of Netanyahu in Israel for instating a policy for many years of strengthening Hamas and keeping Gaza on the brink while weakening the Palestinian Authority," said Mairav Zonszein of the International Crisis Group. "And we've seen that happening very clearly on the ground."

"(Hamas and Netanyahu) are mutually reinforcing, in the sense that they provide each other with a way to continue to use force and rejectionism as opposed to making sacrifices and compromises in order to reach some kind of resolution," Zonszein told CBC News from Tel Aviv.

'Keep Hamas alive and kicking'
This symbiotic relationship between Netanyahu and Hamas has been remarked on for years, by both friends and enemies, hawks and doves.

Yuval Diskin, former head of Israel's Shin Bet security service, told the daily newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth in 2013 that "if we look at it over the years, one of the main people contributing to Hamas's strengthening has been Bibi Netanyahu, since his first term as prime minister."

In August 2019, former prime minister Ehud Barak told Israeli Army Radio that Netanyahu's "strategy is to keep Hamas alive and kicking … even at the price of abandoning the citizens [of the south] … in order to weaken the Palestinian Authority in Ramallah."

The logic underlying this strategy, Barak said, is that "it's easier with Hamas to explain to Israelis that there is no one to sit with and no one to talk to."

Netanyahu's critics say that Hamas — with its bloodthirsty rhetoric, open antisemitism and stated intention never to share the land — played into the hands of a prime minister who also wanted to be able to tell western governments that Israel has "no partner" for peace.

Supporting Hamas rule in Gaza, those critics say, allowed Netanyahu to confine the Palestinian Authority to the West Bank and weaken it, dividing the Palestinians into two mutually antagonistic blocs.

Hamas puts its finger on the scales 
Netanyahu first came to power in the 1996 election that followed the assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin by an Israeli extremist opposed to the Oslo Accords.

Early polls showed Rabin's successor Shimon Peres comfortably ahead.

Determined to sabotage Oslo, Hamas embarked on a ruthless suicide bombing campaign that helped Netanyahu pull ahead of Peres and win the election on May 29, 1996.

Today, some of the same extremists who called for Rabin's death hold power in Netanyahu's government.

Just two weeks before Rabin's assassination, a young settler extremist posed for the cameras with a Cadillac hood ornament he said he had stolen from Rabin's car. "Just like we got to this emblem," he said, "we could get to Rabin."

Today, that young man, Itamar Ben Gvir, is 45 years old and has eight Israeli criminal convictions — including convictions for supporting a terrorist organization and incitement to racism. Once he was rejected by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) for his extremist views. Now, Israel's police must answer to him as Benjamin Netanyahu's minister of national security.

Many analysts believe one of the main goals of the Hamas attack on Israel was to derail the normalization talks underway between Israel and Saudi Arabia, which would have left the Palestinians on the sidelines.

In a remarkable speech last week in Houston, Saudi Prince Turki bin Faisal unleashed on Hamas for its atrocities and obstructionism. But he also had words for Israel.

"I condemn Hamas for further undermining the Palestinian Authority, as Israel has been doing," said the former Saudi intelligence chief and ambassador to the U.S. "I condemn Hamas for sabotaging the attempt of Saudi Arabia to reach a peaceful resolution to the plight of the Palestinian people.

"I condemn Israel for funnelling Qatari money to Hamas."

Prince Turki was referring to money that the Qatar royal family has been sending to Gaza for years, to the tune of about a billion U.S. dollars.

'Hamas is an asset'
Netanyahu's hawkish defence minister Avigdor Liberman was the first to report in 2020 that Bibi had dispatched Mossad chief Yossi Cohen and the IDF's officer in charge of Gaza, Herzi Halevi, to Doha to "beg" the Qataris to continue to send money to Hamas.

"Both Egypt and Qatar are angry with Hamas and planned to cut ties with them. Suddenly Netanyahu appears as the defender of Hamas," the right-wing leader complained.

A year later, Netanyahu was further embarrassed when photos of suitcases full of cash going to Hamas became public. Liberman finally resigned in protest over Netanyahu's Hamas policy which, he said, marked "the first time Israel is funding terrorism against itself."

Netanyahu's education minister Naftali Bennett also denounced the payments, and also quit.

The Palestinian Authority's Ahmed Majdalani accused the Qatari envoy of carrying money to Hamas "like a gangster."

"The PLO did not agree to the deal facilitating the money to Hamas that way," he said.

After both Bennett and Liberman fell out with Netanyahu, he was defeated by a new government that stopped the cash deliveries to Hamas. 

But that government lasted just 18 months. Then Netanyahu returned to power with new, more extreme partners who backed the policy of fostering Hamas to prevent a negotiated peace settlement.

Netanyahu's current finance minister, West Bank settler Belazel Smotrich, explained the approach to Israel's Knesset channel in 2015: "Hamas is an asset, and (Palestinian Authority leader) Abu Mazen (Mahmoud Abbas) is a burden."

Paying Hamas to weaken Oslo
On March 12, 2019, Netanyahu defended the Hamas payments to his Likud Party caucus on the grounds that they weakened the pro-Oslo Palestinian Authority, according to the Jerusalem Post:

"Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu defended Israel's regular allowing of Qatari funds to be transferred into Gaza, saying it is part of a broader strategy to keep Hamas and the Palestinian Authority separate, a source in Monday's Likud faction meeting said," the Post reported.

"The prime minister also said that 'whoever is against a Palestinian state should be for' transferring the funds to Gaza, because maintaining a separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza helps prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state."

Netanyahu insisted that neither the money nor the construction material given to Hamas would be diverted to military purposes. But today, the IDF finds itself showing how Hamas has done exactly that — by diverting and converting civilian funds and materials to warlike purposes.

The military tried to warn him at the time, former IDF chief of staff Gadi Eisenkot told the Ma'ariv newspaper. He said Netanyahu acted "in total opposition to the national assessment of the National Security Council, which determined that there was a need to disconnect from the Palestinians and establish two states."

"We Gaza border residents are paying the price for the lack of policy and the arrogance in facing terror," said Labor Party Knesset member Haim Jelin in 2019.

Those words would prove to be terribly prescient four years later.

Haim Jelin is a resident of Kibbutz Be'eri. The small community was devastated by Hamas on October 7. Roughly 130 of its residents were murdered, while others were taken into captivity in Gaza.

Catch-22 for two-state solution
Mustafa Barghouti, a physician and member of the PLO Central Council, was a key figure in talks between Hamas and Fatah that sought to unify the Palestinians in a single bloc that could negotiate a two-state peace.

"Each time we moved toward unity, Netanyahu would launch a campaign claiming that (Palestinian Authority leader Mahmoud) Abbas is cooperating with terrorists," Barghouti told CBC News from Ramallah in the West Bank.

"But each time Netanyahu was asked, 'Why don't you negotiate with Abbas,' he would say, 'I can't negotiate with a Palestinian Authority that doesn't represent all Palestinians.' And so he would use Hamas and this division to justify his absolute objection to any negotiated peace agreement."

Barghouti said the current war has ended U.S. and Israeli hopes of Israel normalizing relations with neighbouring countries without first resolving the Palestinian issue.

"One of the main results of what has happened is to show that normalization between Israel and some Arab countries does not solve the problem," he said. "It re-established the Palestinian issue as the central issue in this whole knot."

"Most of the world thought that it could sideline this issue," said Zonszein. "Certainly the U.S. thought that. But now it's clear that it is the key to stability in the region as a whole."

Biden: U.S. wants two states
On Wednesday, U.S. President Joe Biden warned Israel to stop attacks by Israeli settlers — a key part of Netanyahu's coalition — on Palestinian civilians. Attacks have spiked this year.

"They're attacking Palestinians in places that they're entitled to be, and it has to stop," Biden said. "They have to be held accountable."

Biden also spoke about what the U.S. wants to see after the war.

"When this crisis is over, there has to be a vision of what comes next," he said. "And in our view, it has to be a two-state solution."

Neither Hamas nor Netanyahu share that vision.

As Netanyahu has pointed out, Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist and lays claim to all of the land "from the river to the sea."

And just twelve days before the Hamas massacres in southern Israel, Netanyahu addressed the UN General Assembly, holding a map of what he called "The New Middle East" that showed all of the West Bank and Gaza, as well as East Jerusalem and the Syrian Golan Heights, as parts of an enlarged Israel, with no Palestinian state in sight.

Damage likely to be lasting
There is a widespread feeling in Israel that Netanyahu's career is finally ending. A trial on serious corruption charges looms in his future.

"He's finished. It's over," said Barghouti. "The problem is that the alternatives are no different from him when it comes to any Palestinian issue. They differ with him on other matters, but when it comes to Palestinians, I don't see any peace camp in Israel."

Hamas and Netanyahu may both prove harder to eliminate than their enemies hope. But even if they leave the scene, the damage to the two-state solution is not easily undone and the current war likely will make things worse, said Zonszein.

"I'm concerned that the fear and the trauma and shock of what happened is only going to make Israelis more scared of Palestinians, and Palestinians more scared of Israelis," she said. "And you see a lot of Israelis who are arming themselves now with personal firearms because they don't trust that the army and police will be there for them."

Nor will Gazans be easily reconciled to the restoration of a corrupt Palestinian Authority, especially one seen to be riding back to power on an Israeli tank.

"It's already lost most of its legitimacy and credibility on the street in the West Bank," said Zonszein. "There haven't been elections in 16 years and they don't have the ability to govern even the West Bank, so why would anyone think they have the ability to govern Gaza?"

Barghouti agreed the current Palestinian Authority and its leadership are at a dead end.

"No Palestinian leader will ever have legitimacy without free, democratic elections, and that is true whether he governs Gaza or not," he said.

"But in my opinion, Israel is not interested in a Palestinian government of Gaza."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-1.7010035

 

Spomenuti koferi za Hamas koji su unošeni preko izraelskog graničnog prelaza.

 

Spoiler

 

 

(autor tvita je glavni novinar izraelskog javnog servisa koji se bavi palestinskim pitanjem)

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by erwin

[Selina]

13 hours ago, Smrtokapa said:

 

Al Džazira svakako nije neutralan izvor, ali u ovom slučaju oni prenose podatke iz izveštaja agencija UN, sa linkovima, osim za Ukrajinu, gde izvor nije UN, ali je navedeno odakle su podaci i lako se može izguglati.

U Jemenu ( izvor UNICEF) je do marta ove godine poginulo 11.000 dece, ali UNICEF uvek naglasava da su to samo verifikovani podaci,

a verifikovanje traje mesecima. Ko broji tu decu koja su jutros poginula? Hamas i drugari? Pa kako oni onda navode statistike koje

osim podataka iz Ukrajine nemaju veze s mozgom?

[Kronostime]

8 minutes ago, Selina said:

U Jemenu ( izvor UNICEF) je do marta ove godine poginulo 11.000 dece, ali UNICEF uvek naglasava da su to samo verifikovani podaci,

a verifikovanje traje mesecima. Ko broji tu decu koja su jutros poginula? Hamas i drugari? Pa kako oni onda navode statistike koje

osim podataka iz Ukrajine nemaju veze s mozgom?

Ko verifikuje podatke iz Ukrajine? Tviter nalozi koje moze da otvori ko god hoce?

Gaza i izbeglicki logori u Libanu i Jordanu su dosta dobro pokriveni godinama UN osobljem i osobljem Crvenog krsta/polumeseca dok u Jemenu, na zalost, nemas toliku pokrivenost pa se i brojke razlikuju.

Sto se mene tice - i jedno nevino dete i osoba koji poginu je suvise, ne postoji cilj koji to opravdava.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Kronostime

[Klotzen]

21 minutes ago, Selina said:

U Jemenu ( izvor UNICEF) je do marta ove godine poginulo 11.000 dece, ali UNICEF uvek naglasava da su to samo verifikovani podaci,

a verifikovanje traje mesecima. Ko broji tu decu koja su jutros poginula? Hamas i drugari? Pa kako oni onda navode statistike koje

osim podataka iz Ukrajine nemaju veze s mozgom?

 

Iz Gaze je izvor hamas. Kada se ode na sajt misije un za gazu tamo jasno piše da je izvor za cifre MOH a to je hamasovo ministarstvo zdravlja. Al Jazera je to svesno prećutala u onom grafikonu da bi tim podacima dala kredibilitet.

 

[erwin]

Zapravo je komplikovanije od toga, kačio sam AP-ov članak s onim brojevima gde se UN-ovi naknadno rekonstruisani podaci i podaci ministarstva za ranije sukobe u velikoj meri poklapaju u kome ima objašnjenje.

 

Quote

The United Nations and other international institutions and experts, as well as Palestinian authorities in the West Bank — rivals of Hamas — say the Gaza ministry has long made a good-faith effort to account for the dead under the most difficult conditions.

“The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis,” said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Program. “But they largely reflect the level of death and injury.”

In previous wars, the ministry’s counts have held up to U.N. scrutiny, independent investigations and even Israel’s tallies. (...)

The ministry is a mix of recent Hamas hires and older civil servants affiliated with the secular nationalist Fatah party, officials say.

The Fatah-dominated authority that administers Palestinian cities in the Israeli-occupied West Bank has its own health ministry in Ramallah, which still provides medical equipment to Gaza, pays Health Ministry salaries and handles patient transfers from the blockaded enclave to Israeli hospitals.

Health Minister Mai al-Kaila in Ramallah oversees the parallel ministries, which receive the same data from hospitals. Her deputy is based in Gaza.

The Ramallah ministry said it trusts casualty figures from partners in Gaza, and it takes longer to publish figures because it tries to confirm numbers with its own Gaza staff.

Hamas tightly controls access to information and runs the government media office that offers details on Israeli airstrikes. But employees of the Health Ministry insist Hamas doesn’t dictate casualty figures.

“Hamas is one of the factions. Some of us are aligned with Fatah, some are independent,” said Ahmed al-Kahlot, director of Kamal Adwan Hospital in northern Gaza. “More than anything, we are medical professionals.”

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033

Edited November 8, 2023 by erwin

[Selina]

7 minutes ago, Klotzen said:

 

Iz Gaze je izvor hamas. Kada se ode na sajt misije un za gazu tamo jasno piše da je izvor za cifre MOH a to je hamasovo ministarstvo zdravlja. Al Jazera je to svesno prećutala u onom grafikonu da bi tim podacima dala kredibilitet.

 

Devedesetih besni rat u Bosni i NIN ( mislim da je bio NIN) pita coveka sa nase strane Drine , a koji vidi leseve u reci,

da li vise veruje svojim ocima ili televizoru i covek mrtav ladan kaze da vise veruje ono sto mu kazu na televizor.

U ovom slucaju sada covek veruje u ono sto zeli da veruje pa neka je izvor i crni djavo.

2 minutes ago, erwin said:

Zapravo je komplikovanije od toga, kačio sam AP-ov članak s onim brojevima gde se UN-ovi naknadno rekonstruisani podaci i podaci ministarstva za ranije sukobe u velikoj meri poklapaju u kome ima objašnjenje.

 

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033

Ma jasno je bre da se gine pod raketama i bombama, verovatno je i vise dece ( deca su svi do 18 godina) poginula, ali je poenta

da Izrael ne ubija namerno bas malu decu za razliku od Hamas stoke koja je usla u Izrael da cinis najstrasnije, najgnusnije

zlocine nad neduznim ljudima.

[Foster]

2 hours ago, shonke said:

Prosto nije tačno da je rečeno da gazu treba poravnati. Ako sam propustio taj post, molim za citat.
Izvrtanje je najlakši "sport". Niko ne priča da su civli legitimna meta. Govori se o tome da se hamas krije iza civila, istra ih ispred sebe a decu često regrutuje i koristi za akcije. Da si idf vojnik na terenu i da se nadjes oči u oči sa nekim klincem od 15 god koji ima a.p. uperenu u tebe, šta bi uradio?

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Tacno je za ravnanje,civile i decu.

Nemam nameru da ponovo iscitavam zadnjih 20 stranica, da bih nesto sto je i veci broj ostalih forumasa procitao.

Da se Hamas krije iza civila, da iste koristi, da mu nije stalo do vlastitih civila...pa to sam i sam istakao vise puta kao i vecina ostalih forumasa.

Taj primer sa klincem koji ima pusku i stoji ispred tebe, ne dotice poentu citave ove diskusije.

Ovo se polako pretvara u utakmicu,

nemam nameru biti navijac na jednom mecu gde se umesto golova broje hiljade mrtvih na obe strane.

Sretno vam navijanje

 

[berti]

Ispasce da su svi Palestinci u Gazi verovatni teroristi. Kako oni zivi, tako i oni koji tek treba da se rode. Da bi se to sprecilo, valjda treba sve to pobiti, ako ne moze drugacije, a po nekima i ne moze drugacije. Kazes da ti je zao nevinih Palestinaca sto stradaju, odmah ide etiketa da podrzavas hamas. Kazes da Izrael cini zlocine, odmah si antisemita.

Pojedina pisanija ovde treba da se urame i budu spomenik ostrašćenosti.

 

[Selina]

1 minute ago, Foster said:

Tacno je za ravnanje,civile i decu.

 

 

Samo je ravnanje bilo, nisu se pominjali civili, a tek deca!!!

 

[erwin]

7 minutes ago, Selina said:

U ovom slucaju sada covek veruje u ono sto zeli da veruje pa neka je izvor i crni djavo.

 

Slušao sam vesti izraelskog radija na engleskom pre neki dan i najnormalnije su saopštili te brojeve i rekli da je izvor min. zdravlja u Gazi, bez ikakvog dodatnog disklejmera tj. eventualnog ukazivanja na nepouzdanost tih podataka.

 

https://www.kan.org.il/content/kan/kan-reka/p-10861/

Edited November 8, 2023 by erwin

[shonke]

Tacno je za ravnanje,civile i decu.
Nemam nameru da ponovo iscitavam zadnjih 20 stranica, da bih nesto sto je i veci broj ostalih forumasa procitao.
Da se Hamas krije iza civila, da iste koristi, da mu nije stalo do vlastitih civila...pa to sam i sam istakao vise puta kao i vecina ostalih forumasa.
Taj primer sa klincem koji ima pusku i stoji ispred tebe, ne dotice poentu citave ove diskusije.
Ovo se polako pretvara u utakmicu,
nemam nameru biti navijac na jednom mecu gde se umesto golova broje hiljade mrtvih na obe strane.
Sretno vam navijanje
 

Jok nego ja sad treba da vrtim 20 strana da dokažem tvoju tvrdnju?

Ako ti je lakše, svi mi koji smatramo da Izrael ne deluje genocidno eto, mi smo zločinci, ravnatelji civila, žena, dece... Cuvajte hamas, tako je najbolje...

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[Selina]

Just now, erwin said:

 

Slušao sam vesti izraelskog radija na engleskom pre neki dan i najnormalnije su saopštili te brojeve i rekli da je izvor min. zdravlja u Gazi, bez ikakvog dodatnog disklejmera.

 

https://www.kan.org.il/content/kan/kan-reka/p-10861/

Ma ja sam cak ubedjena da ima jos vise poginulih ( deca do 18 godina) od te brojke, a narocito ako znamo da tamo ima mnogo vise mladih

od starijih. Zasto bi nas smrt deteta od 15 ili 8 godina vise pogadjala od smrti mlade majke od 19 godina ili starice od 80 godina?

Gine se pod bombama, ginu stari, mladi, deca. Ja samo zelim da kazem da Izrael njih ne ubija namerno da bi im seme unistio,

a toga je jel bilo i na "nasim prostorima", ali se zbog toga Srblje nije mnogo uzbudjivalo.

[Selina]

6 hours ago, tomas.hokenberi said:

Nisu svi, ali većina podržava teroriste i terorizam i u tome jeste problem. Pomenuo sam ankete u arapskom svetu gde u praktično svim državama 50+-90+% podržava smrtnu kaznu za one koji napuste veru, smrtnu kaznu za gej osobe, smrtnu kaznu za preljubnice, i tako dalje. I većina podržava teroriste i fizičko i potpuno uništenje Izraela. Uostalom to o unistenju Izraela mozeš da čuješ čak i na govorima na skupovima "podrške pslestini" u USA i EU. Potrazi snimke ako te ne mrzi.

To je sve mnogo strasnije, terorizam nijedan normalan covek ne podrzava, ali zato barem 80% podrzava antisemitizam, otuda te silne

demonstracije i u USA i u EU. Nikoga od Arapa nije bilo briga kada su stradala deca, civili po raznim Alepima, Mosulima, Jemenu, Groznom,

ali su se sada svi uskopistili jer nevini stradaju u Gazi,  a samo zato sto je sada Izrael u ulozi USA jer je zlo Izrael.

[Beonegro]

3 minutes ago, Selina said:

To je sve mnogo strasnije, terorizam nijedan normalan covek ne podrzava, ali zato barem 80% podrzava antisemitizam, otuda te silne

demonstracije i u USA i u EU. Nikoga od Arapa nije bilo briga kada su stradala deca, civili po raznim Alepima, Mosulima, Jemenu, Groznom,

ali su se sada svi uskopistili jer nevini stradaju u Gazi,  a samo zato sto je sada Izrael u ulozi USA jer je zlo Izrael.

Napisati da je to što izraelska vojska radi u Gazi prekomjerna upotreba sile je antisemitizam?

[longbowman]

Mene zanima samo na šta liče zapadne države kada nema policije ( ovde mislim na UK ) gde se u sred bela dana skupljaju poštovaoci Hamasa i između ostalog uzvikuju " Khaybar,Khaybar Ya Yahood" .

 

Ekvivalent ovoga bi bilo da su se skupili ljudi u znak podrške ISISU posle napada u Nici ili Briselu.

 

 

Trudim se da budem objektivan ali mislim da to vise nece biti moguce