Bliski Istok

[sreta-steta]

Npr, uzmi bilo koju mapu sa stanovnistvom danasnjeg Izraela i pogledaj kako se kretalo tokom zadnjih 100 godina. Pa onda procitaj to sta pises. A ovo "ovajkada"... dogodine u Prizrenu, a?

[shonke]

Uzmi bre pročitaj nešto istorijsko a ne mapu.

Nisu se Jevreji (generalno) doselili pre 20 ili 70 godina. Živeli su tu i ranije. Ne može da se kaže, šta će oni tu, nisu nikad bili.

[erwin]

Pre 100 godina Jevreja je na prostoru tadašnje Palestine (Izrael+Zapadna obala+Pojas Gaze) bilo oko 10%.

 

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present

 

Danas kontrolišu 90% te teritorije s tendencijom rasta.

[RatzenStadt]

43 minutes ago, sreta-steta said:

 

Covek napise ovo i ostane ziv... poznato je da gde god su kolonizatori dolazili, lokalno zivlje je jednostavno procvetalo. Eno pitajmo Asteke, a i Indijana u USA se zove tako zbog lokalaca koji tamo zive. 

 

Koje to istorijske cinjenice Izrael ima na svojoj strani? Da ne pocinju sa sveta srpska, ovaj jevrejska zemlja?

 

Polazu istorijsko pravo na zemlju 😄 
 

[Maharaja]

Ideja da su jevreji kolonizatori u svojoj prapostojbini je vrlo iščašena. Hajde da pričamo o Urugvaju pa da kao ima smisla, ali pričamo o Bliskom istoku. To mogu da guraju samo zapadni kvazi-levičari, kojima su "patnje" palestinskih glavoseča i ubica veće teme od prava radnika u gig-ekonomiji u Mančesteru, što bi trebalo da im bude focus.

 

Pa se onda koristi jezik "colonized" i "oppressed", što je potpuno besmisleno u ovom kontekstu a zapravo je odraz intelektualnog siromaštva i nemogućnosti da se napravi nova analiza sa novim konceptima.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Maharaja

[RatzenStadt]

1 hour ago, shonke said:

 

To je i moj komentar poslednjih nekoliko godina. Jedno vreme si mogao da vidiš puno i žena i dece pored tih "izmučenih" mladih izbeglica. Park kod ekonomskog je bio pun, bilo šatora itd. Dece svud okolo, stvarno jadna situacija. Posle toga sve ovi neki što rep volu mogu da iščupaju i svi bleje u telefone a nigde ni jednog deteta ili žene. Kasnije su ih počistili odatle i verovatno ih relociraju tamo kod Subotice ali ni tamo nisam čuo da se šta promenilo, osim što su postli nasilni, uglavnom prema drugim grupama izbeglica mada je bilo nasrtaja i na lokalce. 

Znam čoveka koji je u BG ranjen ubodom u nogu u sred Dorćola, za malo mu nisu zakačili neku venu da iskrvari čovek.

 

Nemoj tako, to su sve buduci doktori, inzenjeri, naucnici...

[erwin]

Više stotina američkih Jevreja, uključujući i neke sveštenike, pohapšeno u Vašingtonu pošto su napravili protest oko Kapitola i u njemu tražeći prekid vatre i isporuku humanitarne pomoći Palestincima.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by erwin

[shonke]

Ima li negde protesta Palestinaca ili drugih Arapa da se prestane sa raketiranjem Izraela, da se puste taoci, pohapse hamasovaci?

[wwww]

1 hour ago, sreta-steta said:

 

Covek napise ovo i ostane ziv... poznato je da gde god su kolonizatori dolazili, lokalno zivlje je jednostavno procvetalo. Eno pitajmo Asteke, a i Indijana u USA se zove tako zbog lokalaca koji tamo zive. 

 

Koje to istorijske cinjenice Izrael ima na svojoj strani? Da ne pocinju sa sveta srpska, ovaj jevrejska zemlja?

ma nikakve...

 

Jesus (c. 6 to 4 BC – AD 30 or 33), also referred to as Jesus Christ,[e] Jesus of Nazareth, and many other names and titles, was a first-century Jewish preacher and religious leader. He is the central figure of Christianity, the world's largest religion.

Born: c. 6 to 4 BC, Herodian kingdom, Roman Empire

Died: AD 29 or 33 (aged 33–38) Jerusalem, Judaea, Roman Empire

Cause of death: Crucifixion

Known for: Central figure of Christianity, Penultimate Prophet in Islam

Parents: Mary, Joseph

 

Moses is considered the most important prophet in Judaism and one of the most important prophets in Christianity, Islam, the Druze faith, the Baháʼí Faith, and other Abrahamic religions. According to both the Bible and the Quran, Moses was the leader of the Israelites and lawgiver to whom the authorship, or "acquisition from heaven", of the Torah (the first five books of the Bible) is attributed.

Born: Goshen, Lower Egypt, Ancient Egypt

Died: Mount Nebo, Moab, Transjordan

Religion: see Abrahamic religions section

Nationality: Egyptian, Israelite

Spouse: Zipporah/Cushite woman

Children: Gershom, Eliezer

Parents: Amram (father), Jochebed (mother), Pharaoh's daughter (adoptive mother)

Known for: Prophet, Delivering the Ten Commandments to the Israelites

Relatives: Levi (great-grandfather), Aaron (brother), Miriam (sister)

 

Judea, Galilee and neighboring areas at the time of Jesus

 

The Gospels say that Jesus was betrayed to the authorities by a disciple, and many scholars consider this report to be highly reliable. He was executed on the orders of Pontius Pilate, the Roman prefect of Judaea.

Edited October 18, 2023 by wwww

[DJ_Vasa]

25 minutes ago, shonke said:

Ima li negde protesta Palestinaca ili drugih Arapa da se prestane sa raketiranjem Izraela, da se puste taoci, pohapse hamasovaci?

 

Sačekaj sat-dva i dobićeš neku pričicu sa Tnjitera, a možda čak i sa FeZbuka, u kojoj su Jevrejin i Palestinac pajtosi koji zajedno piju pivo i igraju fudbal, ili o tome kako komšinice istih nacionalnosti piju kafu i pozdravljaju se sa 'selam alejkum' i 'šalom'.

 

Koliko god da sam protiv bilo kakvog stradanja i jedne jedine nevine osobe, toliko se poserem na društvo koje neće da kaže da su oni iz Hamasa najgora govna i da uzimanje nedužnih civilnih talaca predstavlja dno dna.

[Smrtokapa]

1 hour ago, sreta-steta said:

A ovo "ovajkada"... dogodine u Prizrenu, a?

Dogodine u Jerusalimu je original, dogodine u Prizrenu je samo bedna kopija.

[𝓑𝓪𝓫𝔂]

7 hours ago, wwww said:

to je stav Osorio i slicnih koji podrzavaju Hamas (ni jednom jedinom recju nisu osudili dela Hamasa od 7.10. - znaci da oni takve cinove smatraju sasvim u redu). Zar ne treba ja sad da sledim njene vrednosne sudove jer je ona "napredna levica"?

 

Ne bih da ti odgovaram na poduzi post, ali izgleda da ti ne biras sredinu niti prihvatas ikakve druge opcije osim odmazde. 

Ona je rekla jasno i glasno da Hamas treba da se neutralise, a da se pazi na civile koji nisu to nisu. Jednostavno pravi razliku izmedju civila i Hamasa. To sto si ti gledala, mozda su sve Hamas pripadnici... ne bih tvrdila nista, ne gledam propagandne materijale poucena kakvim su nas glupostima trovali tokom a i posle jugoslovenskog rata. Ne zelim da upadam u zamku generalne mrznje.

[Klotzen]

Večeras je najžešće veče što se tiče bombardovanja. Bukvalno ne prođe 10 minuta bez neke eksplozije. Ko da će ujutro da krenu u invaziju. U petak je bilo slično pa nije bilo ništa sutradan.

[wwww]

59 minutes ago, erwin said:

Pre 100 godina Jevreja je na prostoru tadašnje Palestine (Izrael+Zapadna obala+Pojas Gaze) bilo oko 10%.

 

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present

 

Danas kontrolišu 90% te teritorije s tendencijom rasta.

 

da vidimo mi i malo siru sliku:

 

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Egyptian Jews constitute both one of the oldest and one of the youngest Jewish communities in the world. The historic core of the Jewish community in Egypt mainly consisted of Egyptian Arabic speaking Rabbanites and Karaites. Though Egypt had its own community of Egyptian Jews, after the Jewish expulsion from Spain more Sephardi and Karaite Jews began to migrate to Egypt, and then their numbers increased significantly with the growth of trading prospects after the opening of the Suez Canal in 1869. As a result, Jews from many territories of the Ottoman Empire as well as Italy and Greece started to settle in the main cities of Egypt, where they thrived. The Ashkenazi community, mainly confined to Cairo's Darb al-Barabira quarter, began to arrive in the aftermath of the waves of pogroms that hit Europe in the latter part of the 19th century.

 

Quote

 

In the 1950s, Egypt began to expel its Jewish population (estimated at between 75,000 and 80,000 in 1948), also sequestering Jewish-owned property at this time.

As of 2016, the president of Cairo's Jewish community said that there were 6 Jews in Cairo, all women over age 65, and 12 Jews in Alexandria. As of 2019, there were 5 in Cairo. As of 2022 the total number of known Egyptian Jews permanently residing in Egypt is 3.

 

 

 

Quote

 

Syrian Jews  are Jews who lived in the region of the modern state of Syria, and their descendants born outside Syria. Syrian Jews derive their origin from two groups: from the Jews who inhabited the region of today's Syria from ancient times (known as Musta'arabi Jews, and sometimes classified as Mizrahi Jews, a generic term for the Jews with an extended history in Western Asia or North Africa); and from the Sephardi Jews (referring to Jews with an extended history in the Iberian Peninsula, i.e. Spain and Portugal) who fled to Syria after the Alhambra Decree forced the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492.

 

There were large communities in Aleppo ("Halabi Jews", Aleppo is Halab in Arabic) and Damascus ("Shami Jews") for centuries, and a smaller community in Qamishli on the Turkish border near Nusaybin. In the first half of the 20th century a large percentage of Syrian Jews immigrated to the U.S., Latin America and Israel. Most of the remaining Jews left in the 28 years following 1973, due in part to the efforts of Judy Feld Carr, who claims to have helped some 3,228 Jews emigrate; emigration was officially allowed in 1992. The largest number of Jews of Syrian descent live in Israel. Outside Israel, the largest Syrian Jewish community is in Brooklyn, New York and is estimated at 75,000 strong. There are smaller communities elsewhere in the United States and in Latin America.

 

 

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In 2011, there had been about 250 Jews still living within Syria, mostly in Damascus.[5][6] As of December 2014, fewer than 50 Jews remained in the area due to increasing violence and war.[7] In October 2015, with the threat of ISIS nearby, nearly all of the remaining Jews in Aleppo were rescued in a covert operation and moved to Ashkelon, Israel. It was estimated in November 2015 that only 18 Jews remain in Syria.[8] In September 2016, the last Jews of Aleppo were rescued, ending the Jewish presence in Aleppo.[8] In August 2019, BBC Arabic visited some of the last remaining Jews living in Damascus.[9]

 

Quote

Moroccan Jews  are Jews who live in or are from Morocco. Moroccan Jews constitute an ancient community dating to Roman times. Jews began immigrating to the region as early as 70 CE. They were later met by a second wave of migrants from the Iberian peninsula in the period which immediately preceded and followed the issuing of the 1492 Alhambra Decree, when Jews were expelled from Spain, and soon afterward, from Portugal. This second wave of immigrants changed Moroccan Jewry, which largely embraced the Andalusian Sephardic liturgy, to switch to a mostly Sephardic identity.

The immigration of Moroccan Jews to Israel has occurred throughout the centuries of Jewish history. Moroccan Jews built the first self-made neighborhood outside the walls of Jerusalem (Mahane Israel) in 1867,[15] as well as the first modern neighborhoods in Tel Aviv, Haifa and Tiberias.[16]

At its peak in the 1950s, Morocco's Jewish population was about 250,000-350,000,[17] but due to the migration of Moroccan Jews to Israel and other nations, including Operation Yachin from 1961 to 1964, this number has been reduced to approximately 5,000. The vast majority of Moroccan Jews now live in Israel, where they constitute the second-largest Jewish community, approximately half a million.

 

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The history of the Jews in Tunisia extended nearly two thousand years and goes back to the Punic era. The Jewish community in Tunisia is no doubt older and grew up following successive waves of immigration and proselytism before its development was hampered by anti-Jewish measures in the Byzantine Empire. The community formerly used its own dialect of Arabic. After the Muslim conquest of Tunisia, Tunisian Judaism went through periods of relative freedom or even cultural apogee to times of more marked discrimination. The arrival of Jews expelled from the Iberian peninsula, often through Livorno, greatly altered the country. Its economic, social and cultural situation has improved markedly with the advent of the French protectorate before being compromised during the Second World War, with the occupation of the country by the Axis.[1] The creation of Israel in 1948 provoked a widespread anti-Zionist reaction in the Arab world, to which was added nationalist agitation, nationalization of enterprises, Arabization of education and part of the administration. Jews left Tunisia en masse from the 1950s onwards because of the problems raised and the hostile climate created by the Bizerte crisis in 1961 and the Six-Day War in 1967.[2] The Jewish population of Tunisia, estimated at about 105,000 individuals in 1948, numbered around 1,000 individuals as of 2019.[3][4][5] These Jews lived mainly in Tunis, with communities present in Djerba.

The Jewish diaspora of Tunisia[6] is divided between Israel and France

 

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The history of Jews in Jordan can be traced back to Biblical times. Presently, there are no legal restrictions on Jews in Jordan, and they are permitted to own property and conduct business in the country, but in 2006 there were reported to be no Jewish citizens of Jordan, nor any synagogues or other Jewish institutions.

According to the Hebrew Bible, three of the ancient Israelite tribes were allocated lands on the east side of the Jordan River valley, in the territory of present-day Jordan. They were the tribes of Reuben, Gad and Manasseh.[2] These tribes were members of the Northern Kingdom of Israel until the kingdom was conquered by Assyria in c. 723 BCE and the population deported.

A nation related to the Israelites, the Edomites (Idumaeans) resided in present-day southern Jordan, between the Dead Sea and the Gulf of Aqaba.

The Hasmonean official Antipater the Idumaean was of Idumean origin. He was the progenitor of the Herodian dynasty that ruled Judea after the Roman conquest. When Herod the Great became king, Idumaea was ruled for him by a series of governors, among whom were his brother Joseph Antipater and his brother-in-law Costobarus.

Immediately before the siege of Jerusalem by Titus, 20,000 Idumaeans, under the leadership of John, Simeon, Phinehas, and Jacob, appeared before Jerusalem to fight on behalf of the zealots who were besieged in the Second Temple.[3]

After the Jewish-Roman wars, the Idumaean people ceased to be mentioned in history.

Roman rule in the region began in 63 BCE, when the general Pompey declared Judea a Roman protectorate. Over the years, Roman power over the Judean kingdom increased. Among the voices of opposition were John the Baptist, whose severed head was allegedly presented at the fortress of Machaerus to Herod. In 66 CE, the forces behind the First Jewish Revolt took control of Machaerus, Beth-nimrah, and Livias. The rebels held Machaerus until 72 CE, when a siege secured the defeat of local Jewish forces.

At the end of the Bar Kochba revolt of 132-135 CE and the destruction of Judea, the Romans joined the province of Judea (which already included Samaria) to Galilee to form a new province, which they called Syria Palaestina.[4] Following the Roman conquest, the lands on both sides of the Jordan River with its Jewish inhabitants came under the control and decrees of subsequent Roman emperors and Arab caliphates.

 

 

sto vise citas sve vise dolazis do zakljucka da je tu neko drugi bio etnicki ciscen, zar ne? kao da se taj porast od 10% na 90% moze dovesti u vezu s proterivanjem Jevreja iz svih ostalih zemalja tu u okolini, pa kud ce, sta ce, njima jedino preosta o Izrael.

[erwin]

  

Rulja zapalila i srušila sinagogu u Tunisu.

 

Izraelski javni servis navodno objavio da je sve spremno za invaziju.

 

Londonski Tajms piše da je Bajden dao podršku za invaziju.

 

Ministar spoljnih poslova Izraela najavio da će do kraja rata uz nestanak Hamasa iz Gaze doći i do smanjenja teritorije Gaze.

[wwww]

1 hour ago, erwin said:

Pre 100 godina Jevreja je na prostoru tadašnje Palestine (Izrael+Zapadna obala+Pojas Gaze) bilo oko 10%.

 

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present

 

Danas kontrolišu 90% te teritorije s tendencijom rasta.

ima negde neki podatak koliko je na prostorima danasnje EU bilo Palestinaca, Sirijskih Arapa, Jordanskih Arapa, Persijaca itd. pre 100 godina, a koliko ih ima sada? Koliki procenat teritorije su onda kontrolisali, a koliki sada?

mozda @sreta-steta ima neke mape i istorijske cinjenice, bas bi me nesto zanimalo. posto pricamo o istorijskom pravu i tapiji na zemlju, kolonizatorima i sreci lokalnog stanovnistva sto ih upoznaje...

[wwww]

8 minutes ago, erwin said:

  

Rulja zapalila i srušila sinagogu u Tunisu.

hvala bogu te vise u Tunisu nema ni jednog Jevreja inace bi ih zive zapalili u sinagogi, u najboljoj tradiciji od 7.10.

 

 

zanima me komentar Osorio i drugarice joj iz parlamenta Ilhan ili kako se bese zove, na ovo:

kojoj strani li su sada lojalne?

Edited October 18, 2023 by wwww

[wwww]

evo je i treca kongresmenka americka (ona koja nije rec htela da prozbori u osudi masakra od 7.10. kad ju je reporterka jurila hodnikom i pokusavala da uzme izjavu, a ona kao mula cuti, sagnute glave i zuri da se dokopa lifta da ide u svoju kancelariju valjda, a ispred koje joj je pored USA zastave i palestinska - ima neki strucnjak za USA pravo i te zastave, je li to dozvoljeno da americki kongresmeni/ke ispred svojih kancelariija imaju neku drugu zastavu osim americke? )

 

kojoj drzavi je ova lojalna?

 da vidimo hoce li se protiv ovih podnositi krivicna prijava kao protiv Trampovaca.

e

Edited October 18, 2023 by wwww

[Ozu]

vidim krenula je istraga drugoamerikanaca...

[wwww]

 

[boxcube]

2 hours ago, sreta-steta said:

 

Covek napise ovo i ostane ziv... poznato je da gde god su kolonizatori dolazili, lokalno zivlje je jednostavno procvetalo. Eno pitajmo Asteke, a i Indijana u USA se zove tako zbog lokalaca koji tamo zive. 

 

Kolonizacija  Juzne Amerike i rekolonizacija Judeje i Izraela od strane Jevreja su kao nebo i zemlja i zbog toga ih je veoma glupo porediti na bilo koji nacin. O oba ta istorijska fenomena treba voditi potpuno odvojene polemike.

 

2 hours ago, sreta-steta said:

 

Koje to istorijske cinjenice Izrael ima na svojoj strani? Da ne pocinju sa sveta srpska, ovaj jevrejska zemlja?

 

Ne mora uopste da se uplice bilo kakva prica o svetoj zemlji posto takve price nemaju nikakvu pravnu tezinu a ne mora si povlaciti argument istorijskog prava jer je i ta prica delimicno opterecena sujbketivnim tumacenjima ali je dovoljno reci su Jevrejima Rimljani oduzeli zemlju i nazvali je Srija-Paletina po Filistejcima kao so na ranu porazenim Jevrejima u rimsko jevrejskim ratovima. Zbog toga kad se Jevreji vracaju krajem devetnaestog veka oni rekolonizuju zemlju koja im je oduzeta jednim delom trgovinom drugim delom naseljavajem nenaseljenih delova te teritorije. Od pocetka 20. veka traju pravne borbe Jevreja da se resi pitanje stvaranje njihove drzave na tim prostorima a Arapi svakom mogucom prilikom odbijaju cak i da cuju za stvaranje Jevrejske drzav. Odbili su 36. odbili su 48. i odlucili se na pokusaj genocida, 67.  Arapi ponovi pokusali genocid i isto tako 73. Sa druge strane Izrael je bio spreman na razna pravna resenje i kompormise gde bi Arapi imali dve drzave za sebe Palestinu i Jordan a Arapima ni to nije bilo dobro jer nezele zemlju vise nego totalni nestanaka Jevreja. Ne znam ko iole upucen i dobronameran moze da misli da su Arapi bilo kakva ostecena strana od strane Jevreja, jesu od svoji islamista, i da postoji neka "druga strana price" koja Arapima daje neka "prava" koja su im toboz uskracena. Uzgred pravo na genocid i etnicki ciscenje nepostoji i neko ko takvo potrazivanje maskira nekim plakanjem je hulja na bezbroj nivoa.

[wwww]

 

 

[pierre van hooijdonk]

Glavni utisak koji je na mene ostavila nova eskalacija ovog dugog i kompleksnog konflikta jeste, naravno, tragedija i sudbina koja je zadesila sve neduzne ljude u tom delu sveta i uzasavajuce scene, snimci, reportaze, price... faith in humanity na poprilicnom minimumu.

 

Sledeci vodeci utisak je potpuna razocaranost i rezigniranost nacinom na koji se ovom sukobu pristupa, pre svega od strane onih koji najvise i mogu da uticu na sledece korake, svet je toliko podeljen, nervozan i sukobljen da me nikakva pandemija, pa cak ni onaj sukob koji je pao u drugi plan mogao pripremiti za ovo.

 

Brojkama masakriranih beba, deda, baba, dece i terorista se pristupa krajnje CEO-vski, raznorazna sranja pocinju da se desavaju na tlu Evrope, niko ne mari za posledice, osecam se kao da je honeymoon period gotov i da su eskalacije, sukobi, podele, mrznja i nasilje na putu da postanu svakodnevnica za ogroman broj ljudi diljem planete.

 

Uglavnom pomno pratim aktuelnosti, izjave i reakcije dogadjaja ove skale i znacaja, ali mislim da bi po prvi put po sopstveno mentalno zdravlje bilo pametno da pokusam da se malo izolujem iz surove realnosti danasnjeg sveta, koji je izgleda oduvek i imao ovo lice, samo je nekada bolje, nekada losije stavljao masku. 

[erwin]

Izraelci prave poljsku vojnu bolnicu na severu, a ministar odbrane izjavio da vojska mora da se spremi za borbu, jer je Hezbolah 10x jači od Hamasa.

[wwww]

Students of New York University ripping down posters with the information about, and pictures of, the Israeli children kidnapped by Hamas

 

Spoiler