Trans-Amerika Express

[Helena]

  Na čega ti liči ova Darkova rečenica?

 

 

Vidiš, nije samo broj problem - problem je što se time narušava integritet ženskog sporta, a ženski sport je ionako na klimavim nogama. Čak i da je jedna trans žena u pitanju, bio bi problem.

 

 

 

[Rex]

"Na čega" god da mi liči, ne liči mi da iko brani trans ženama da se bave sportom. Niko nikad nigde u istoriji ljudskog roda nije branio trans ženama da se bave sportom, niti je sprečavao trans žene da se bave sportom, niti je pokušavao da spreči trans žene da se bave sportom. To ne postoji. Nema. Niko to ne radi.

[Darko]

2 hours ago, Helena said:

  Na čega ti liči ova Darkova rečenica?

 

 

Vidiš, nije samo broj problem - problem je što se time narušava integritet ženskog sporta, a ženski sport je ionako na klimavim nogama. Čak i da je jedna trans žena u pitanju, bio bi problem.

 

 

 

Tražiš dlaku u jajetu i izvrćeš smisao rečenog. Govorilo se o trans ženama u ženskom sportu, bar u elitnom. Naravno da niko ne brani da se trans osobe bave sportom. 

[Helena]

Ništa ja ne izvrćem, doslovno si to mislio kad si pisao o trans ženama u sportu.

O tome su se lomila koplja od početka, a ako se dobro sećam, ti si taj koloplet i započeo.

 

[Angelia]

20 minutes ago, Helena said:

Ništa ja ne izvrćem, doslovno si to mislio kad si pisao o trans ženama u sportu.

O tome su se lomila koplja od početka, a ako se dobro sećam, ti si taj koloplet i započeo.

 

Izvrces, pricamo o tome da trans osobe koje se deklarisu kao zene, u zenskom sportu imaju biolosku prednost, jer su bioloski muskarci. Ne vidis da se borba vodi oko trans osoba koje se deklarisu kao muskarci, a bioloski su zene, jer nemaju biolosku prednost u muskom sportu. Ako se desi I jedan takav slucaj videces da ce se o tome pricati.

Niko ne brani trans osobama da se bave sportom, samo to moraju da rade u svojoj bioloskoj kategoriji. Inace to nije fer. To je prosto nauka.

Isto vazi za sva mesta namenski odvojena za zene. To ne znaci da ne mogu da postoje gender neutral mesta, ali mogu samo da postoje ako postoji izbor, tj da jos uvek postoje zenska mesta. 

[Angelia]

Najnesrecnije u mom postu je da sam morala da upotrebim toliko puta bioloski/a/u da objasnim prostu razliku izmedju zene I muskarca. Do pre par godina nisam morala da upotrebim toliko reci da objasnim nauku.

Biologija I medicina su nauke, jednog dana kad neko nadje moje kosti, moci ce bioloski da odredi koji sam pol bila, nikog nece interesovati, niti ce znati, kako sam se ja osecala.

[ters]

 

46 minutes ago, Angelia said:

Najnesrecnije u mom postu je da sam morala da upotrebim toliko puta bioloski/a/u da objasnim prostu razliku izmedju zene I muskarca. Do pre par godina nisam morala da upotrebim toliko reci da objasnim nauku.

Biologija I medicina su nauke, jednog dana kad neko nadje moje kosti, moci ce bioloski da odredi koji sam pol bila, nikog nece interesovati, niti ce znati, kako sam se ja osecala.

Mozda ostanu i elektronski zapisi foruma, koji nece ostavljati nikakvu dilemu kako si se osjecala....

[Mina D. Harker]

15 hours ago, ters said:

o svemu ovome pricamo ne jer ovu medijsku propagandu  protiv trans zena u sportu ne vode Ivana Spanovic, Maja Ognjenovic, Tijana Boskovic, Marina Maljkovic ili Sandra Perkovic nego  Piers Morgan, Ben Shapiro, Matt Walsh - i Vladimir Putin...

 

 

Martina Navratilova, Sharron Davies.

[Helena]

Ako ću BAŠ da cepidlačim, nisu ni one

takmičarke.

Martina je još posebna priča, iskoristila je sve blagodati zapadne civilizacije, koja joj je omogućila da vodi normalan život i da bude to što jeste.

A i onda je bilo povika od Margaret Kort I drugih da je lezbejstvo "suprotno bogu" i slične gluposti.

Ona je čak igrala revijalni meč protiv Konorsa.

Ali da ne širim priču o biologiji i fiziologiji.

 

 

[DameTime]

Dva interesantna teksta na temu zašto "gender" ne može u potpunosti da zameni "sex"

Fears of Patriarchy: Why Trans Ideology Is Attractive

 

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Many people tell me that they don’t challenge trans ideology because they want to be compassionate toward people in distress. That’s understandable, but it doesn’t answer the question of why trans ideology has become the dominant position on the left. Here’s my best explanation.

 

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If the rigid, repressive, and reactionary gender norms that many of us want to resist are a product of patriarchy, then the obvious target for political organizing should be the practices of patriarchy, used here as a term for varied systems of male dominance in the family, economy, politics, and culture. If patriarchy forces us into rigid boxes, represses our ability to experience our full humanity, and generates a reactionary politics, then let’s go after patriarchy, right?

 

The problem is that fighting patriarchy is hard. It is the oldest of the oppressive social systems, going back several thousand years in human history, compared with several hundred for white supremacy and capitalism. Patriarchal ideas and modes of behavior are so woven into the fabric of everyday life that they can be hard to identify, let alone eliminate. Feminist organizing has forced some changes, such as improved laws against rape, domestic violence, and sexual harassment. But striking at the core of male dominance, especially at men’s sexual exploitation of women, produces intense backlash.

 

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I learned this working on the feminist critique of pornography. The most hostile reactions to an analysis of the sexist and racist patterns in pornography came from liberal/progressive/left folks, especially men. I found that confusing at first, until my friend Jim Koplin (the same JK from whom I borrowed the phrase “multiple cascading ecological crises” in another chapter of the book) made a point that now seems obvious to me: When we critique pornography, people know it’s not just a critique of movies and magazines (this was years ago, before the internet ended the market for pornographic magazines) but of men’s assumption that they should be in control, as well as of the ways we learn to be sexual in a patriarchal culture. People are nervous about surrendering control and giving up methods for finding sexual pleasure, which I know because when I first encountered the critique it scared me, and I still struggle with all the ways I was socialized into patriarchal masculinity.

 

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Why has the trans movement made such deep inroads on the left, to the point where a feminist challenge to trans ideology can get one banished from progressive spaces? My working hypothesis is that embracing transgender politics gives the appearance of challenging patriarchy without actually fighting male dominance. Instead of confronting male power, trans activists most often embrace patriarchal gender norms, implicitly or explicitly, or refuse to challenge those in the trans movement who do embrace those norms. Supporting the trans movement gives the appearance of feminist politics without facing the most vexing issues.

 

Feminists like me aren't anti-trans – we just can't discard the idea of 'sex'

 

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That’s because of the importance placed by gender-critical feminists, including me, on the body. Of course we don’t agree on everything, any more than LGBTQ activists do. But broadly speaking, our analysis is that women’s lives are shaped by their physical differences from males as well as the cultural meanings derived from these. The exploitation of women’s domestic and caring labour, for example, is linked to (though not justified by) our role in reproduction. Female anatomy makes us vulnerable in specific ways to sexual violence, such as pregnancy from rape. Our breasts are the most common site of cancers among women.

 

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Understanding sexual difference to be an important facet of human experience, we seek a form of equality that recognises it. We do not accept the much newer concept of gender identity (the feeling of being male or female) as a substitute. And we think the idea that “sex” can be discarded in favour of more inclusive terminology, as advocated by Butlerian feminists, is naive. Because if “sex” ceases to be talked and thought about, how will we recognise and tackle sex-based oppression, not just in western countries but around the world?

 

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I recognise the importance of the concept of gender identity for trans people. But it (and with it, the term cisgender) can’t be forced on to women like me who regard questioning gender roles, while advocating on behalf of our sex, as the whole point of feminism. Nor is it accurate to describe us as “trans-exclusionary radical feminists”, as Butler did last week. Gender-critical feminism is more varied than that. (My own influences, for example, include Kleinian psychoanalysis and evolutionary biology.)

 

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None of this means “GC” feminists are in favour of bigotry, or don’t care about the obstacles and prejudices faced by transgender people, or that we deny the existence of people with differences in sex development. What it does mean is that we think rejecting sex as a way of thinking about ourselves would be a terrible error.

 

[Mina D. Harker]

^ To je krenulo jer su Amerikanci puritanci, i teško im je bilo da izgovore sex (kao pol) pa se umjesto toga zapatio gender (rod). 

Mi u jeziku takvih problema nemamo, pa sam blago iziritirana kad se insistira na rodno - umjesto polno zasnovanom nasilju, a u smislu ukazivanja na nasilje nad ženama.  

[Helena]

Ali se zato reč ideologija koristi bez ikakvih problema.

 

[DameTime]

Engleski jezik: samo neutralno značenje

 

 

 

[Helena]

Zašto samo neutralno, prvi pasus vrišti koliko je tačan.